Op Vig Poll: Mag Restrictions Feedback Needed

[Kerrik13]

Hi everyone,

I am in the process of updating the Op Vig rules for this year. Last year there were some questions about mag restrictions, so I would like some player / community feedback for Op Vig 5 this year. I am thinking about going with one of the 2 following options...

1) No mag restrictions but only SAWs can have box mags. No restrictions on where magazines can be refilled on the field.

2) Each player gets one winding magazine (hi-cap) and then all the non-winding magazines they want to carry. Only SAWs can have box mags. No Restrictions on where magazines can be refilled on the field.

Although my preferred playing style is no hi-caps at all, I have already decided against that game mechanic for the Op Vig series, so the only two choices I am going with are detailed above.

I would love to get some player feedback on this before I set the rules in stone.

Thanks!
Ryan

[Razor]

I like the "1 high cap" mag restrictions, granted if I had an AEG that didn't have midcaps I'd probably vote the other way. The 1 high cap restriction seems very reasonable considering the variety and style of midcaps available. Since G3 mids were one of the later ones to come out (what I'm using) I believe most people would have an AEG capable of taking them, especially M4 and AK styles (I don't follow all models so there may be some without a midcap option). It's probably one of the cheapest and easiest ways to add more milsim to the game.

[18nightmare]

1 hi-cap and all the mids you want, relaod anywhere

[ArchEnemy]

I'll be getting a box of 5 midcaps shortly, and probably another 5 in the future (before vig) but its not like they are expensive, plus they don't rattle! unless you figured out a way to break one...

[Paul@Apoc]

My personal preferance is no hi caps whatso ever but thats just me, i would go with the 2nd if i had to pick 1.

[ArchEnemy]

yeah, when i get my midcaps I'll just toss my hicaps lol, for $0.01 i have a total of 3 so its not really worth trying to sell them. and good riddance! (i hate when hicaps spit and all that)

[Shifty]

What about support weapons using as many hicaps as they want? Because getting enough box mags for a support weapon is expensive.

[Kerrik13]

For this kind of modified rule system, SAWs can use all the hi-caps you want. We'll probably end up tagging the hi-caps at chrono, so OCs will know if someone is using their one or if a saw is using their stockpile.

[Batman]

FYI, we have found on more then one occasion, players who are not the SAW gunner using the SAW gunner's high-caps and switching back when they see an OC comming at our events, hence the SAW gunner having to use a box mag and no high-caps rule... Just a heads up to be prepared for that.

[Batman]

My personal preferance is no hi caps whatso ever but thats just me, i would go with the 2nd if i had to pick 1.

Agree

[ArchEnemy]

FYI, we have found on more then one occasion, players who are not the SAW gunner using the SAW gunner's high-caps and switching back when they see an OC comming at our events, hence the SAW gunner having to use a box mag and no high-caps rule... Just a heads up to be prepared for that.

hopefully hidden OCs will catch them

P.S. did you get my pm about role playing for breedland? you haven't gotten back to me on that.

[Kerrik13]

Batman,

Yeah I know... that is the problem with allowing hicaps for SAW gunners. It was a low blow for all SAW gunners out there... the actions of one ruin it for the many. :P

[ArchEnemy]

Batman,

Yeah I know... that is the problem with allowing hicaps for SAW gunners. It was a low blow for all SAW gunners out there... the actions of one ruin it for the many. :P

so is it now a no go on the saw hicaps now?

[Batman]

Arch, for TFD games, it has been for over a year. If we find a winding mag on the field, the player in possession is GONE. No yellow card, no red card, no exceptions. Same goes for changing springs or Systema cylinders to change volocity after the player has crono'd.

[Doc]

No highcaps, box mags for SAW's only.

[ArchEnemy]

well i dont need to worry about either, i own neither a saw nor highcaps (after i get my mids next week that is)

although this is ryan's game, not a TFD, so i figured i would ask.

[Kerrik13]

Correct, TFD runs a mil-sim series rule set that does not allow hi-caps at all. It works well for them and, speaking as a Breedland I and II veteran, it is a very enjoyable game mechanic for the more mil-sim oriented crowd (I know this is a subject of debate... but it is a common theme that non-winding = more milsim... but please don't debate it here lol)

Op Vig will go to a modified rule set, most likely one that allows 1 hi-cap for all players and as many hi-caps as you want for SAW gunners, all hi-caps tagged at chrono or something like that. Remember, just check the event details on the www.operationvigilance.com web page later on once it is updated and live... it will have the finalized rule set... this thread is just to get feedback from the players and is NOT the final say on any rules... the event website will be.

But thanks for the input, everyone, it is helping a lot.

[Batman]

Sorry, wasn't trying to debate. Thought the question was directed at me and so, I answered it baised on that belief.

[Kerrik13]

Batman,
Nope, no problem at all with your reply and no apology needed. What you brought forth was relevant, a rule set that TFD uses for Breedland, and it is helpful with the discussion. There is a very strong opinion/debate on the whole "Mid-Caps = MilSim" vs the "Magazines are irrelevant to mil-sim style" in the community and I didn't want the thread turning into a continuation of that overall debate/topic.

I personally run with 70-90 round standards/midcaps and love changing out mags and taking ammo inventory. I feel it is very mil-sim and love it. Heck, for our private mil-sim game throughout the year we even run with limited locations for refilling mags for added realism. But some people think that you can run with all hi-caps and still have a good mil-sim game... which you can, neither is "more correct". Both sides are valid and both sides have advocates of both playing styles, I just wanted the debate to steer clear of the thread. :)

Op Vig originally had no ammo restrictions and people could rock a million hi-caps if they wanted. The player based has leaned towards toning this down a little, so I am using my hybrid rule set for the event series (again, check the event website later for full info).

[RedQueen]

I really like the idea of restricting the number of hi-caps while still allowing their use. Every gun I've ever bought came with a hi-cap and I hate not being able to use the silly things:P

In my strange mind(me being a chick makes it a strange place indeed!) I believe "MilSim= What you bring to it", rather than something that is enforced by physical restrictions. People who don't have(or try for) a MilSim mindset will never do well in games set up with serious missions and goals, above and beyond 'Capture the Flag' or "Shoot the Bad Guys".

I would like to see some ammo refilling restrictions, however. Maybe each squad has to carry their own, like we did at a previous game, in an ammo can. Or maybe troops can only refill at designated locations. All the restrictions in the world on hi-caps doesn't keep people from having a ton of ammo.

Just some thoughts. Keep up the awesome, Kerrik.

[Ungrim123]

Howdy all, the terrible Thunderlizard here, with my first post. I've resisted becoming a forum troll for years, but now that I've moved under the bridge I like it here.

Anyway, to the topic at hand. I would agree with Kerrik about preferring mid caps (MC), but I understand having 1 high cap (HC).

However, I also agree with Red Queen in that without a limit on where you can reload, unless you’re in a firefight that runs through all your ammo it really doesn’t matter. I think that reloading mags should be restricted to each faction’s main base, whatever vehicle they have and one portable can.

Getting the portable can, or possible a second one could be folded into the special gear that both sides choose before the game. The flipside to the portable can would be that it could be stolen by the other faction, possible becoming a mini objective in-of itself.

[Batman]

[QUOTE=RedQueen;95824]All the restrictions in the world on hi-caps doesn't keep people from having a ton of ammo.

[QUOTE]

No, but it does force people to do reloads and makes it so there actualy is an advantage to having SAW gunners. Allowing hi-caps = why be a SAW gunner and carry a bigger gun when I can lay the samy abount of rounds down range with a MP5.

[RedQueen]

Getting the portable can, or possible a second one could be folded into the special gear that both sides choose before the game. The flipside to the portable can would be that it could be stolen by the other faction, possible becoming a mini objective in-of itself.

Oooooo... I like that! Ammo becomes mission.... real ammo drops would be so kewl!

[RedQueen]

No, but it does force people to do reloads and makes it so there actualy is an advantage to having SAW gunners. Allowing hi-caps = why be a SAW gunner and carry a bigger gun when I can lay the same abount of rounds down range with a MP5.- Batman

I have seen the benefit to having a SAW gunner in the squad. Their rate of fire and the amount of ammo that they lay down is a tremendous force modifier. But I think that restricting the ammo itself rather than how many BB's fit in a magazine is a greater challenge. If I can have unlimited ammo, and I have the money to buy as many midcaps as I can carry, then there is little difference between myself and the person with a handful of hi-caps.

Just an observation. I would love to see ammo-refilling restricted. Soldiers in the armed forces can't always reload wherever, whenever, with unlimited ammo. If we want true MilSim based on how much fire we can pour downfield, we need to control how much ammo is out there.

[Jonesy]

If I can have unlimited ammo, and I have the money to buy as many midcaps as I can carry, then there is little difference between myself and the person with a handful of hi-caps.

Oh, there is a difference, and it's not little either.

Just for the giggles, let me outline them.

I can carry twelve STANAG (M4) Mags at a time. With midcaps, I'm carrying roughly 1200 rounds, ready to go, plus my potential rounds ( The extra 1000 or so I carry in my speed loader/BB bottle. )

In contrast, a player with hicaps using the same rig, carrying the same amount of mags has 3600 rounds, ready to go. Plus whatever they carry in reserve to reload.

That in and of itself isn't a big deal, I don't mind people having more ammo- they can tug around a little red wagon full of BBs for all I care.

The issue comes from the fact a player with hicaps can quite literally hose a position without fear of getting caught in a reload.

When their mags equal three of my mags, that means they can shoot for three times as long without having to swap mags. ( This is further compounded by different weapons- an AK for instance has a 600 rd hicaps. Six to one mag reload ratio! ZOMG )

Problem is, when everybody is slinging huge amounts of BB's at each other, almost indiscriminately, it bogs down the gameplay because nobody can move. It's hard to break cover and advance, retreat, or move laterally when your opponent is never going to have any down time. (reload time)

It's more of a game play issue than anything, and it's entirely dependent on the type of terrain and the play environment- there are some places at Apoc where it becomes more problematic than others. In either case, I support the second option in lieu of the fact there isn't a 'no hicap' option.

TLDR: Hicaps give shooters more time-on-target, making games slow down and firefights drag on endlessly with neither team being able to advance efficiently.

( Edit for clarity: I am a lethargic, lazy player who is sometimes winded by the act of performing a tactical reload. I have nothing but love for hicaps when it comes to their convenience. My above ranting was in no way meant to berate or 'bring down' hicaps or their users. Just an explanation of how I see their effect on game play in organized sessions. And is in no way a commentary on the matter of mil-sim versus not. )

[RedQueen]

I can carry twelve STANAG (M4) Mags at a time. With midcaps, I'm carrying roughly 1200 rounds, ready to go, plus my potential rounds ( The extra 1000 or so I carry in my speed loader/BB bottle. )

In contrast, a player with hicaps using the same rig, carrying the same amount of mags has 3600 rounds, ready to go. Plus whatever they carry in reserve to reload.- Jonesy

I think in my previous post I said "All the midcaps I can carry" vs. "Person with a HANDFUL of hi-caps". If you're carrying 12 midcaps vs. someone with 12 hicaps, of course there's no comparison. But the person with 12 midcaps vs. the person with 4 hicaps, that would be closer.

I own an M14. My midcaps carry 190-ish rounds. My hi-caps(all 2 of them) hold about 400 each. So, other than the less than 3 seconds it takes me to drop a mag and put a new one in, if I have 2 midcaps, that equals, approximately, 1 hicap.

All of this is just my personal opinion. I hate the idea of my lonely 2 hi-caps, sitting in the tuff box, pining for use. I'd be happy busting out just one of them for OpVig and a little fun-time:)

[Jonesy]

I figured that was what you meant, I just glossed over it for the full effect. The main game play mechanic, from my point of view is still the same.

Keep in mind, if I have twelve midcaps and my opponent has four hicaps, he or she still has the same amount of ammunition as me, but is lighter, has to reload less, and doesn't have nearly as much bulk on their gear.

Less reloads equal more time on target, which equals less movement, and in turn slows down the gameplay ( Which can be boring, in my opinion at least. )


Don't get me wrong, I change guns more often than some folks change socks. And almost everyone of them has come with a hicap. I have lots of them (hicaps) I'd wouldn't mind getting more use out of them.

This is just my personal stance and understanding on how they influence the game, for better or worse. ( As mentioned, I'm lazy. The less moving I have to do; the better. I like hicaps in that respect. :-) )

[Peally]

Don't want to reload? Then quit using the replica rifles at the milsim event and pick up a reservoir full of paintballs :D.



In my humble opinion...

[LZ129]

One thing that we need to keep in mind is that midcaps are not cheap. My AEG cost less than my magazines did (my fault for buying a Sig 552, but still). Hell, Vig was my first event and I would have been screwed without my hi-cap, since it was the only mag I owned. I was running with a 400rd high-cap and two 40 round low caps I borrowed for the event. I'm pretty sure most folks on the field had more ammo in their midcaps. Operation Vig is a very large event that draws a lot of new people into the sport, and I think we need to be accommodating. A lot of these younger players don't have any mags besides the crummy hi-cap that came with their gun (which in all honesty probably has to be wound every hundred shots anyway unless they have a nice one with a key).

The only event I have ever been to that allowed highcaps is Op Vig, and it is also the event where we see the youngest players. It has a very simple rules set, but at the same time offers a ton of roleplaying opportunity which gets them out of the "playing in my backyard with my brother" mind set and helps teach them how to be a team player. It is the best event in SE Wisconsin for introducing new blood into our sport, and I think that the One Hi-cap limit option with as many Mid-caps as one can carry is the only way to go.

[ArchEnemy]

i really think that you shouldn't need hicaps unless you are laying down suppressing, or covering fire which is what the saws do. for my m4 i have 10 68 rd mags, i only plan on carrying 8 (until i get another double mag pouch), i am not heavy on the trigger so it really doesn't matter. fore those who ARE heavy on the trigger, its something to practice. i can see where both are coming from, but in most cases, a starter gun is usually an AK or an M4/16, both of those guns have 120 rd midcap sets for $50. not cheap but it isn't going to break the bank and that is still 1200 rds.

[Gallows]

Many games these days is switching over to midcaps only or one highcap, I don't believe in any mag restrictions besides only SAWs can use box mags, at least for Op Vig. The reason is Vigilance has traditionally always had lenient equipment restrictions and that I think, is part of whats made it such a sucessful event over the years. The event is very accommodating to the casual player and restricting mag use would hurt that.

[Jonesy]

Don't want to reload? Then quit using the replica rifles at the milsim event and pick up a reservoir full of paintballs :D.


Which would be a fair argument, if Vig was billed as mil-sim, and if airsoft midcaps didn't have roughly the same capacity of many high end paintball hoppers. ;)

[DKruse]

Just sayin, but....

let's just ban all rifles and only use pistols. Less pistols have high caps anyway, and those are much more expensive, right? :)

[ArchEnemy]

Just sayin, but....

let's just ban all rifles and only use pistols. Less pistols have high caps anyway, and those are much more expensive, right? :)

but wouldnt that rule out hicappas? haha.

[Zenthane]

Personally i think, that at least for Op Vig, the 1 HiCap and unlimited Mids is just fine. But I also like the no HiCaps rule as well. I'm in the same boat as LZ129, last Op Vig was my first game and all i had was 2 HiCap mags. HiCaps allow new players to jump into games with less money invested. Hell i still run with my $105 Cyma AK-47 (Oksanna has been a good gun). So anyways yeah that's my piece. Keep up the great events Kerrik and all you TFD boys I'm looking forward to my first Breedland!

[FoxTrot1]

Many games these days is switching over to midcaps only or one highcap, I don't believe in any mag restrictions besides only SAWs can use box mags, at least for Op Vig. The reason is Vigilance has traditionally always had lenient equipment restrictions and that I think, is part of whats made it such a sucessful event over the years. The event is very accommodating to the casual player and restricting mag use would hurt that.

I agree with Zenthane. Mid caps are ALOT of fun to play with but when you mix in just allowing 1 hi cap then, from what iv seen, players tend to sneak additional hi caps in. Since it would be easy to do that, I think to just avoid fueds over this we should just keep the same rules as last year. Also since Op.Vig had good rules for newer players, it would really hurt the turn out over somthing so simple

[Micanthropyre]

I can switch out a midcap faster than I can wind a highcap. I know that some highcaps (P90) come to mind when dealing with this rule because they can wind up 300ish rounds, and electro-winding and C-mags are different, but all highcaps are not created equal.

I'm all for the midcaps-only games now that I'm out of college and have a job that allows me to drop $100 on midcaps for a game. For big games like Breedland, midcaps-only are a fine rule, as the goal of the game is to be as awesome as possible for a higher than normal fee. As long as attendance stays up for those events, let it be.

However, if a goal of an event is to be an introductory game for new and younger players, then you've got to allow at least one highcap for the simple reason being that with just one highcap, you can effectively eliminate the need for 50-100$ in midcaps, as well as 30-100$ in LBE costs. It isn't hard to swallow the entry fee to an event even if you've played in the backyard, but eating another 80-200$ in gear just to see if you like it is quite a cost.

[Kerrik13]

Thanks everyone for the feedback. The magazine rule is always one that has a lot of different opinions and viewpoints.

Although some players are ok with a "whatever you want" magazine style, I had an overwhelming opinion of at least something along the lines of mag restrictions. I think that a nice middle ground has been found, allowing people to play with whatever they bring but discouraging people from rolling nothing but hi-caps.

I did update the official ruling for Op Vig on the website that allows 1 hi-cap + all the non-winding mags you want and only SAWs can use box mags. The CodeName Thunder event series in Illinois has this ruleset and it works pretty well.

Again, thanks for the feedback everyone.