So many skirms, so much Paintsoft

[Maple]

This isn't an Op in the making, it's just a rant by little old me.
Recently, there has be an outpouring of folks planning "Ops" which are little more than paintsoft games. It shames me to attend most of these games, as they are little more than a bunch of guys running around wasting money on bb's. Not that games like BH Wars were not fun (due to a well thought out idea and interesting concept) but for Pete's sake, but almost every "Op" that is being tossed around recently is the same exact idea as one and other and is little more than a speedball game of paintball... ummm, I mean airsoft.
Come on people, try thinking of an idea that isn't a big game of capture the flag/ fort/ my nuts and try putting some thought into having a Milsim type game. It's not very hard to do.
Take a look at some of the more popular games in the last 6 months and you'll notice that they were multi-part, multi-objective missions. Some involved taking breaks, others involved 5-6 hours of airsoft goodness.
Don't get me wrong, I like trigger time, but come on, what's more fun than sneaking for 2 hours, taking out the Opfor with them never seeing you and grabbing the objective.
That said, I purpose this, before announcing that you are hosting a game, try to put an ounce of thought into the idea, ask for some help if you need it, and then, and only then, present the idea to the public.
-maple

p.s. Criticize all you'd like, I'm in the mood for a battle of wits.

[perculator]

hahahahaha its funny cause its true

[SINN FEIN]

I definatly agree with you on the speedball part. It seems that no matter what skrim I have gone to, it always ends up with a big shootout in the field. Playing as a sniper, it has definatly frustrated me to see just one big battle, rather than organised squads moving to take objectives. It's always fun to stalk a group and then pick off the stragglers :D


Oh, and never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience. :)

[Black_Kade]

Hey maple, if you have any suggestions for my game on the 29th please post them or PM. im open to Ideas.

I dont want my op to turn into a bunch of paintsofting, rather i want to gear it more towards Mil sim, but I dont know if my current format accomodates a milsim style.

[Ben]

It's tough because even if you have a well planned op with objectives and everything, it usually degrades into the usual vip/tower capture/deathmatch type game.

[RTO]

Well I guess I'm just going to have to save up all ideas that come to me in the winter and maybe colaborate (SP?) with another player or two and put on a true MIL SIM game. I agree with your thinking Maple, and it makes perfect sense.

We'll just see what next years Spring-Fall seasons have instore after winter comes around.

[Maple]

It's tough because even if you have a well planned op with objectives and everything, it usually degrades into the usual vip/tower capture/deathmatch type game.

I do agree, that it is tough to think of an idea for a game. I also agree that even a well planned Op can turn out to be a deathmatch, but it seems to me that too many of the Ops planned/ proposed recently have little thought put into them and are deathmatches from the get go.
When planning an Op, put some thought into it. Try to make it a little more complex than "shoot each other to win a tower". If it degrades into a spray and pray mission, at least you tried to make something out of it.
-maple

p.s. The two biggest compliments I ever got after an Op were:
1. Man, it was tough trying to figure out what was going on out there. I should have brought a radio. (Fog of war is a beautiful thing to me.)

2. This game sucked, I didn't even go through a hi-cap. (This made me feel good because it meant that people were actually sneaking and trying to achieve the objective, rather than just shooting.)

[Jun Wen]

Haha. I think I shot under 100 rounds at Fallen Angel, and most of the shots were warnings during the mad dash after the scientist.
That event really raised the bar for me. The required planning, coordination, and communication brought a higher level of intensity and urgency to every decision. It's what a few of my friends have been craving for in airsoft and, unfortunately, haven't seen too often. As much as they love the huge and diverse field over at Apoc, they wanted to feel like a piece of the whole coordinated effort. This does require a lot of planning and management on the side of the organizer, though, as well as the commanders of the teams. Getting a bunch of strangers to be coordinated over the course of one day is a pretty lofty goal unless all the players come in with the expectation to emphasize teamwork.

The culture of airsoft in Wisconson is being shaped right now. If "paintsoft" is the style we're cultivating, it will be quite a feat to move away when all these new players think that airsoft is supposed to be played like that.

[knob]

2. This game sucked, I didn't even go through a hi-cap. (This made me feel good because it meant that people were actually sneaking and trying to achieve the objective, rather than just shooting.)

thats the same thing i hear alot from some of the younglings..
This sport/hobby is SUPPOSE to be a MILSIM sport... The objectives are ignored or forgotten.

Maybe what might help is that if the objectives of some sort had strict time limits... and if which ever team assigned with which ever objectives failed to meet that time limit or didn't finish it at all... Points or which ever would be taken away.... Might help with the motivation durring game play.
Also if people would commit to playing on the whole field, it could intensify the game a bit more... I mean from what garys site says, its a total of 35 acres of game space... and it seems that only half or maybe a little bit over that is used...

also, Garyb.. I like the add-on that you did to the structure way in the back of the field near the red tower... Can't wait to see more.

[Timmay]

this is why i dont host games or come up with scenarios much. the stuff id spit out would be 90% research and planning, and 5% objectives, with 5% of hope it doesnt go sour. mainly because i like open ended scenarios, leaving it up to the commander to pull it off, while not making it easy as hell either. Rubber Ducky was a lot of

Original objective with
specific goals
rules for them
possible deviances
rules for deviances
estimating time per scenario if it goes too fast
fill ins for those cases
specific team orders
specific stories to tie it together
character roles
rules for them
regulating medic/respawn balances
rules for them both
radio channels
props
planning props into story
planning props for hard useage
rules for props

and theres more. thats just MAIN stuff. Planning a GOOD op most will enjoy, isnt easy. Especially with more and more people that show, that means more deviances/variables to consider.
Before you post an "idea" for an op etc, reasearch the crap out of it, and mainly say "how can people screw this up/bitch/find it unfair at all" and work off that. Planning an op is only half the work when it kicks off.

[Viper]

All very valid points. I don't know if I'm part of the "Paintsoft" group or not that Maple is referring to. All I know is I try to make each game I put together as fun as can be. I try and throw some unique goals (Op: Trick-or-Treat), or cool objectives in whenever I can, the thing I usually worry about, is wether or not the teams will play out the event the way I would like to see it end. Of course this never happens, which is one of the reasons I'm starting to get away from the MERT focused story games. Originally I thought it would be cool to do, but it just turned into a bigger mess. That's why for Op: Deep Freeze II, I went a completely different direction. The thing I want to let others know about planning an Op is this, it's a learning experience. It takes a lot of time to get the right Op idea down on paper, and even more work to get it to play out on the field. From what I've learned is this:
1.) Make clear objectives - Complicated or vauge ones never work.
2.) Don't over do it - Complicated and intricate story arcs and goals usually slows everything down. Which loses intrest on the part of the players.
3.) Props, Curse or Blessing - Make sure any props you make for the game have an actual purpose in the game.
4.) Make it fun - Viper's equation for a good game ( Good Plot + Fun concept = Happy Players) because if it isn't for the players, who are you going to have play the game you designed ?

Take what I say however you want. I just wanted to chime in with my thoughts. ;)

[KA-JJ]

IMO, we should have these big events like BHD, Fallen Angel, and BHwars whenever we can, but we need big notice, we need advance. Professor scheduled his BHD game months before they even played it and nearly 100 people showed. Thats good planning and enough time in advance. Yet, what do we do in between those events. You cant constantly have good games, you have to have something spacing that. You try to get as many Milsim finely planned out games but it takes time. So in between we have operations with multiple objectives. We can play 2 hours of CTF, 2 hours of VIP, whatever. It might just be me, but i need to play whenever I can make it. Airsoft is airsoft and i know airsoft as milsim, and its not ever going to change in my book. Some people will come from the paintball generation and move to airsoft and bring alittle paintball with them. There is nothing you can do for that, but hope for the best. Then again this has been JJ's .02 cents that always makes absolutely no sense! Until next time,
JJ

[Professor]

Maple's point is well taken. There are events with strategic objectives and then there are BB spraying contests. I myself prefer those which are designed around real life military scenarios or even actual events which have objectives and twists/challenges.

I have to tip my hat to Brad (Ghostbear) and whomever else was involved in designing the WAA skirmish as well as Jeff (Mr Crow) for OP:Fallen Angel. Both events were non-stop skirmishes with well defined objectives. Unfortunately, I didn't make Rubber Duckey so I can't comment, but I'm sure Timmay did a fine job too. After trying to run BHD as an continous event without breaks I found it very difficult to accomplish and not have the objectives fall apart. Maybe that's just like real life, but I feel I could have done better...oh well, people seemed to enjoy it anyway.

Coming from both sides of the event, playing and running, I enjoy those which may involve more than an hour or so of sneakin-n-peakin without gun play, planned targets with multiple challenges and are preplanned to have different subsequent missions depending on outcomes, and periodic gun battles and break offs to move on to the objective.

The intent is not to just shoot, but shooting may or may not assist in accomplishing one's objective.

That's me quids worth...and I'm sticking to it!

[Ghostbear]

Prof,

I cant take any cudo's for the WAA event. Chris Peters, Matt Fisher and Ryan Thom (all of Group W) were the orchestrators of that event. And it was a blast wasnt it. [:Y:]

[element365]

Good planning of scenarios and objectives only goes so far. A good game really relies on the people who play in it. A perfect scenario can go to hell very quickly if only a handful of players decide not to follow the scenario guidelines. That's just what I've noticed in quite a few games I've attended.

[RTO]

ha ha ha... you mean like BHD where professor kept screaming for us to get to the crash site and nobody moved until Kade and I finally got balls and just ran though all the gunfire?

yeah, w/o proper players too, the skirm idea might get shot to hell too. but most of the time we dont' really have that bad of a problem getting that concept down, do we?

[SPANKY *AK-47*]

Right on, Right on..........

[Wrex]

I'd like to see an OP where there are NO regens. Where you can have to hunt down one last guy or vice versa. There can be multiple objectives but the regen thing gets boring after awhile!

[RTO]

that, or just limit it to so many regens (ie. three per person) and then after that there is no comming back for them. do like a two or three part segment where you have to do certain ammounts of stuff w/in each ammount of time? hows that sound?

this is actually good input for a future op that someone could plan using all this information

[Professor]

Okay GB...Chris, Matt and Ryan...you guys rock! Well done mates.


Element...you are so right. Way too many times teams get bogged down and just sit behind cover and exchange fire. As well, some people don't take the event seriously and don't play as if there is "real fire" and throw all the military aspects, objectives and team work out the window.

[Black_Kade]

RTO, no one moved even after we did! Thats why we got screwed at BHD.

[garyb]

I have been looking at ideas to break a stalemate on the field.
One that I can up with is the use of artillery/Tac air, have one side (Probably US) have on call artillery/Tac air. When the Team leader calls for it, it will land in a certain area, hopefully where a large number of enemy troops are located. An OC would have to go to that area and call out a number of casualties, which would break a deadlock and have the US (Or whatever units) be able to continue with a mission.
Just a thought

[Professor]

Interesting idea Gary...you'd have to grid mark a field map. Then the forces could call in coordinates. There could be a required amount of delay built in for the fire mission to be coordinated and if the enemy was still in the spot then they would be called dead...if they had moved they're alive still. It would probably be a good idea to also limit the use by a specified number of times a team could use it.

[Vigilante]

Well so ONLY the US could use it, what about the opposite side? Maybe an Anthrax bomb or something of the sort? and if US enters that area for 30 minutes they are considered dead? and it drifts or something? The enemy cant be affected because they have chemical suits or something? Or would the opposite side also have that ability to call in artillery?

[garyb]

Yes, All of those things I have thought of. This would make the team leaders very important, he would have to be able to read a map.
I am not saying just the US could use these things, but give one side a tactical advanage If the SCENARIOS called for this type of weapons.

[SPANKY *AK-47*]

Brilliant Gary, Brilliant

[Viper]

Good idea Gary. One idea I always had was to break out water balloon sling shots and have an artillery team on each side who could pummel an enemy area. As in real life, sometimes they drop it too far or too close, which would involve some skill on the part of the artillery teams to hit the proper target. But it would add another level to the game. And as in real life, the enemy will want to neutralize the artillery which would once again add something to even the standard run and gun game. Milsim can go so much further than what has been done here in Wi. The main thing is to get everyone on board. Yes, the 1 or 2 hour skirmish is fun every now and then, but give me smoke, Artillery, and a bunch of gung-ho SOB's and now we are talking one hell of a game. Sorry, I get a little over zealous. ;)

[NATHANIELJONESTHUGANGEL]

Good idea Gary. One idea I always had was to break out water balloon sling shots and have an artillery team on each side who could pummel an enemy area. As in real life, sometimes they drop it too far or too close, which would involve some skill on the part of the artillery teams to hit the proper target. But it would add another level to the game. And as in real life, the enemy will want to neutralize the artillery which would once again add something to even the standard run and gun game. Milsim can go so much further than what has been done here in Wi. The main thing is to get everyone on board. Yes, the 1 or 2 hour skirmish is fun every now and then, but give me smoke, Artillery, and a bunch of gung-ho SOB's and now we are talking one hell of a game. Sorry, I get a little over zealous. ;)



Lol, that would so fun to be on the Water Balloon artillery, except when you soaked someones AEG, thus possibly wrecking it.

[Viper]

After I posted I realized I didn't clarify my thoughts once again. The ammo that would be used would be a water balloon filled with very little water, air, and some BB's. Hey, I know it's not perfect, but until they bring the price down on Airsoft grenades, this is the best I can think of.

[Kenuchfleck]

Only the Regiment guys know about some of the Op's I've planned for our team and just like Professor I like to model the storyboard after real life engagements. It makes it much easier to roleplay and get into character. Our last big one (12 guys) was modeled after the battle in Ia drang Vietnam. I played the role of Lt. Col. Nguyen Huu An and our second ranking officer played the role of Lt. Col. Hal Moore. I bought Vietcong slope hats for all the guys on our team and we tried to wear all khaki or black, and some of the Americans tried to wear 60's era BDU's and rigs, it was a blast. We had multiply but clear objectives that corresponded with the actual engagement and very generous regens. But then again small games are very easy to have a good time at!!

The thing with large Op's is that there needs to be a very proficient support stuff to help guide the day along. This is tough because it means paying the full field price and sacrificing your day of fun to help the OC, all the teams, insertions, props, and objectives go smoothly. I've got Operation Lion Claws 3 and when I watched it I was amazed at the support staff present to make it all go good. To tell you the truth, much of how they pull those big ones off is still a mystery to me..

[Wrex]

I still think it will end up in a BB fest! Limiting Regens would be ok though. Every player on the field is given something, IE wrist or arm band, you get hit, return to the regen/medic station and get the band punched. 3 punches, your out! LOL kind of has mutiple meanings there. Anyway, that would lead to an ACUTAL victory.

[RTO]

I like the punch idea of regens. Mind if I use it at a skirm or two Wrex?



RTO, no one moved even after we did! Thats why we got screwed at BHD.

Oh yeah, I forgot, WE WERE THE ONLY TWO! lol;) nice try to eveyone else who did and I didnt' see it though.

[Vigilante]

Hmm, well don't they actually make 6 mm paintballs?

Would any of you consider it for a real Paintsoft?

[RTO]

Hmm, well don't they actually make 6 mm paintballs?

Would any of you consider it for a real Paintsoft?

Yeah, we've considered them. But then after they screwed up my springer, I stopped using them and they suck major butt I think. Others may like them and more power to them. I just hate them personally. Waste of money. For like 15 dollars you get 200 rds. Even the new ones that you can buy that apparently wont' break inside an AEG, still don't trust them.


As far as your little friend, umm.. yeah, right, ok! lol

[Maple]

Hmm, well don't they actually make 6 mm paintballs?

Would any of you consider it for a real Paintsoft?

Be my guest and use 6mm paintballs. Just don't come whining on the boards when your AEG is toast.
BTW, paintsoft is a derogatory term (sp?)

[Mr. Crow]

Someone mentioned early on in this thread about big battles breaking out in the main field.

gee wally those are some of the funnest parts of the event. In bounty hunter wars, a two team team was trying to bring in Jun Wen for bounty and three other teams were determined to keep them out.

I think that the main field is great as Gary has been doing a great job of building it up. But I do think that as a game designer, one should try to open up the field as much as possible.

[Double Z]

This whole idea relates really well to the classes I'm taking right now. I'm in a Level Design II class. This is basically a class for game designers that is ment to teach me how to keep the story fun for my player. When I started thinking about an OP awhile ago I started to look at the stuff I'd covered in class. Anyways, I do find the games like BHD and FA very fun, but some weekends I don't feel like peek-n-poke games, I just want to walk out, know I need to capture whatever towers/flags/people, and let it snap. To me it's not about "playing war" it's about having a good time, getting outside, and hanging with some of the craziest people I've ever met. Paintsoft may be a bad term, but I know once and awhile it's just fun. Just my $.02 worth.

PS I've enjoyed reading this at work, so please on with the debate.

[KA-JJ]

Hmm, well don't they actually make 6 mm paintballs?

Would any of you consider it for a real Paintsoft?

sorry for this but,
thats the absolute dumbest idea ive ever heard of, period!