WAA AEC

[Grey Knight]

You know, I have heard of these AEC’s for a while, and I still don’t understand exactly what they are for. I did a GIS and turned up nothing except dates and times for ones that were already held. If you’ll humor me by answering some questions. I ask these questions not only for myself, but for anyone else who wants to know, and any parent who wonders what their kid(s) will be doing at this event:


What use is this course to the attendee? What incentive do we have to attend?
Exactly what is included in the course? What activities will be conducted?
Who is teaching this and what certifications and experience do they have?
Does completing the course warrant a certificate or award of some kind?
If so, who is the issuing governing/regulatory body and what official or legal precedence does this certification validate?
Why would we need gear beyond basic safety gear, food/water, and an AEG (BB’s/Battery)?
*I firmly believe in "being prepared" but I also hate lugging more stuff than I need to.* :)


Thanks in advance, champ.:D

[A-Ron]

These questions seem to pop up more often than not, and usually they are in my PM box.

1. What use is this course to the attendee? What incentive do we have to attend?
This course teaches the safety side of airsoft, your basic "dos and don'ts" with your airsoft gun, along with a bit of marksmanship portion at the end.
By taking this class you are certified to play at ABZ's fields once they switch over to everyone being required to have an AEC to play at their field. You are certified, if under the age of 18 to play at TFD sanctioned games. I believe the Dragon's Lair still requires players under the age of 18 to have attended an AEC to play at their field as well.

2. Exactly what is included in the course? What activities will be conducted?
As mentioned your airsoft safety is covered, along with "dos and don'ts" with some marksmanship testing at the end.
The AEC is part "classrom time" for instruction, and part "on hands" time for the marksmanship portion.

3. Who is teaching this and what certifications and experience do they have?
WAA AEC Certified instructors are the only ones that will be instructing. Other AEC Committee members will be helping assist with other portions throughout the class.
All WAA AEC instructors have attended AT LEAST one AEC themself and have been through a training course in which they learn how to teach the AEC.
All WAA AEC Committee members are paid WAA Members.

4. Does completing the course warrant a certificate or award of some kind?
Yes, there is a certificate that will be mailed to you once you complete the course.

5. If so, who is the issuing governing/regulatory body and what official or legal precedence does this certification validate?
The AEC committee, comprised of WAA members that strive to promote the safe, respectful, and responsible play of airsoft in Wisconsin.

6. Why would we need gear beyond basic safety gear, food/water, and an AEG (BB’s/Battery)?
Some players tend to mule out any little trinket they think is cool on their gear / pack and it tends to bog and weigh them down A LOT.
Other things such as bug spray, sun screen, rain gear, warm weather gear, etc.. Are seasonal items. They are not required but are highly recommended.
Boots that provide ankle support are required of every player. This is a safety measure to help prevent injured attendees.

[Downslide]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

The Airsoft Evaluation Committee has been one of the focal committees of the Association, because Safety and responsible growth of the sport is one of our main goals.

[Shifty]

I have sort of a question/suggestion instead of an AEC for kids under 18 those that have taken a Hunter Safety Course. All they have to do is bring proof of the hunter safety or and old hunting license and they are allowed to play?

They teach the same stuff except your dealing with real guns and not airsoft guns. I should be coming to this as well as Round UP.

[Downslide]

That would make a certain amount of sense, I suppose. I took the HSC when I was a kid, as well (yeah, they had it back then). But, there are a few things we teach (and look for) that they do not teach in the HSC.

I'm not trying to slight in any way the significance of the Hunter Safety Course, I am merely trying to make the point that there some difference between the two sports.

[Maple]

I have sort of a question/suggestion instead of an AEC for kids under 18 those that have taken a Hunter Safety Course. All they have to do is bring proof of the hunter safety or and old hunting license and they are allowed to play?

They teach the same stuff except your dealing with real guns and not airsoft guns. I should be coming to this as well as Round UP.

I agree with you to a point, but there are several items that are touched upon in the AEC that HSC does not teach, mainly because they are airsoft related, rather than real steel related.
All in all, the course is good for learning safety, but is also great for getting to know some others in the community and it also gives you face time with some veteran (5-10 years in the active WI airsoft community, rather than folks who have been playing with a small group privately) players who can answer pretty much any question you throw at them.
Look at it this way (not directed specifically at Shifty), spending 2-3 hours re-learning stuff you may already know won't hurt, especially because it opens up more games for you. (TFD, Group W, Dragon's Lair and ABZ games all come to mind)

[Shifty]

Thats what I mostly thought the thing that I don't like is that I am 17 and will be 18 in May. Thats mostly when the games really start up again but o well Its only 10 dollars. :D

That would make a certain amount of sense, I suppose. I took the HSC when I was a kid, as well (yeah, they had it back then)

I think that all kids and all schools should make them take a HSC just because they are good to know. But thats off topic.

[seppuku]

I haven't taken either Hunter Safety or the AEC (which I hope to someday rectify on both accounts), so this is only speculation, but I think a big difference between the two is that the HSC teaches you to safely not shoot at people, while the AEC teaches you to safely shoot at people.

[A-Ron]

... HSC teaches you to safely not shoot at people, while the AEC teaches you to safely shoot at people.

ha ha haaa... Yeah, you've got us there.

[Ghostbear]

Sepp..

I was going to add that EXACT same sentiment.

In that little sentence is a whole BOOK of why we have the AEC. In the end, this is a game of people that are actually shooting other people for fun. If that doesnt warrant a half day safety course so you shoot at others with the utmost safety in mind I dont know what to say that will change your mind.

[Batman]

& may I take this opportunity to again reiterate what A-ron said above.... Under 18 yoa & no AEC = No play at Round-Up II!!!!!!!!!!! (Unless from out of state, with that state's equivlant to the AEC... Ex: MAA's BATC)

[Grey Knight]

Augh. What a day at work. Sorry for getting back to these answers so late.


WAA AEC Certified instructors are the only ones that will be instructing. Other AEC Committee members will be helping assist with other portions throughout the class.
All WAA AEC instructors have attended AT LEAST one AEC themself and have been through a training course in which they learn how to teach the AEC.
All WAA AEC Committee members are paid WAA Members.
I could write a class on, say, lawnmower repair, but what "I think" I know may be completely different from what is needed to effectively teach a class. By the way, I know nothing of small engine repair. :D
So basically, I'm curious how the instructors are chosen. Are they Paramedics? Are they Nurses or Doctors? How about Police or Military? A combination of of the above? Are they Red Cross certified? Or are they just a bunch of guys who have been playing Airsoft for a while? Are they recognized by a City/State/Federal government in any way?
For example: If I were one of these instructors, and some one asked me if I have had any kind of formal safety training, I'd be able to tell them I have been through the HSC, I work full time in a lab that requires GLP and OSHA certification, I'm a certified First Responder, HAZMAT certified, and I have been playing Airsoft for 3 years.
You could have specific requirements, but it's those requirements I want to know about. How are those standards chosen?
I'm not trying to be a smartass. Honestly. ;)I just basically want to know how "professional" this is. I don't want to attend a class where the instructors certify themselves. That would be like having your wedding performed by a priest that was ordained by taking one of those online questionnaires.



5. If so, who is the issuing governing/regulatory body and what official or legal precedence does this certification validate?
The AEC committee, comprised of WAA members that strive to promote the safe, respectful, and responsible play of airsoft in Wisconsin.
I wonder if there's some kind of Red Cross safety certification that could be applied for. That would be impressive.
Every great organization starts with steps like the WAA. It would be neat to see where it goes next.


Boots that provide ankle support are required of every player. This is a safety measure to help prevent injured attendees.
My only criticism is this:
The shoe requirement.

Some younger players or families with budget restrictions might not be able to afford such things, and what's the point in buying a $25 pair of boots if they are actually less safe and comfortable than their regular $80 shoes?
Safety is first and foremost in the hands of the player, and they should want to buy gear to keep them safe, but it's just my opinion that it should be up to them.
Especially since the waiver basically absolves the field/personnel of liability.
Not that I think the waiver should proxy safety. Oh, God no.

I haven't taken either Hunter Safety or the AEC (which I hope to someday rectify on both accounts), so this is only speculation, but I think a big difference between the two is that the HSC teaches you to safely not shoot at people, while the AEC teaches you to safely shoot at people.
That's the best argument I have heard. Most of the time when I ask people that question, all I get are, "Uh... well, it's different. So we don't want to recognize the HSC... because this is different... some how. I can't explain how, but it's just different.":(

[A-Ron]

So basically, I'm curious how the instructors are chosen. Are they Paramedics? Are they Nurses or Doctors? How about Police or Military? A combination of of the above? Are they Red Cross certified? Or are they just a bunch of guys who have been playing Airsoft for a while? Are they recognized by a City/State/Federal government in any way?

-We pretty much have at least one, if not more, instructors in each one of the fields that you just listed.


You could have specific requirements, but it's those requirements I want to know about. How are those standards chosen?
I'm not trying to be a smartass. Honestly. ;)I just basically want to know how "professional" this is. I don't want to attend a class where the instructors certify themselves. That would be like having your wedding performed by a priest that was ordained by taking one of those online questionnaires.

-With the way the WAA is setup, instructors cannot certify themselves. I am the one who puts people on the committee. With review from both the President and Vice President, and then the AEC Committee Chair (myself), we all review and train each instructor to be able to teach each the WAA AEC.
The WAA AEC was re-written this year by myself, Downslide, and Ghostbear. It took three months after the first "revision" to work out the kinks each of us did not like.
We then worked to train qualified individuals to teach that class.


Some younger players or families with budget restrictions might not be able to afford such things, and what's the point in buying a $25 pair of boots if they are actually less safe and comfortable than their regular shoes?
Safety is first and foremost in the hands of the player, and they should want to buy gear to keep them safe, but it's just my opinion that it should be up to them.
Especially since the waiver basically absolves the field/personnel of liability.
Not that I think the waiver should proxy safety. Oh, God no.

-This was a requirement decided upon by the committee.
While we have not turned attendees down, the requirement has been put into place for safety.

My personal opinion on the boot statement (stepping outside of the AEC Cmte), if you can afford a 100+ dollar gun, a 20+ dollar vest, and then 10-20 dollar per bag of bb for this sport... Why not spend 25 dollars (yes, you can find them that cheap) on a pair of boots that could possibly save you? You've already spent enough on your gun and equipment, why not spend a little bit on another good piece of safety gear.

[Batman]

I have heard from more then one doctor, that asside from the simple aspect of rolling ancles, a good set of boots protects more then just your feet.

Long term effects of bad footwear can be felt in the spine, neck & shoulders, not to mention the legs & hips, later in life.

As stated above by A-Ron, if they can afford the $100 gun, they SHOULD be able to afford proper footwear & in my opinion, they should buy the footwear first!!!

Your airsoft gun may last you a few years on the field, but your body has to last you a lifetime!

[Loofah]

So basically, I'm curious how the instructors are chosen. Are they Paramedics? Are they Nurses or Doctors? How about Police or Military? A combination of of the above? Are they Red Cross certified? Or are they just a bunch of guys who have been playing Airsoft for a while? Are they recognized by a City/State/Federal government in any way?
For example: If I were one of these instructors, and some one asked me if I have had any kind of formal safety training, I'd be able to tell them I have been through the HSC, I work full time in a lab that requires GLP and OSHA certification, I'm a certified First Responder, HAZMAT certified, and I have been playing Airsoft for 3 years.
You could have specific requirements, but it's those requirements I want to know about. How are those standards chosen?

Ive been playing since late 2001ish-i honestly have lost track. After attending a few AEC's(formerly BATC's) ive helped and gained all the knowledge needed to teach THIS class. Playing has helped also-what if stories etc. Also i haven not changed my almost agressive stance towards safety, since without it, you should just sell your gear before its too late.
Come to a class, and i GUARANTEE you we will teach you something. Until then, please tread lightly on questioning whats been in place for years now.

Also-certified EMT/Medical personnel have always helped instruct. I know some things, but i wont treat you unless i have to without papers(damn lawyers) There are also current and Ex Military and Police that help or instruct. No that itself doesnt qualify you.



I'm not trying to be a smartass. Honestly. ;)I just basically want to know how "professional" this is. I don't want to attend a class where the instructors certify themselves. That would be like having your wedding performed by a priest that was ordained by taking one of those online questionnaires.

Again-attend, and then spread the word.


I wonder if there's some kind of Red Cross safety certification that could be applied for. That would be impressive.
Every great organization starts with steps like the WAA. It would be neat to see where it goes next.


My only criticism is this:
The shoe requirement.My advice? Dont be a cheapass when it comes to footwear! They are your feet. Where do you go without feet? Nowhere. I slam that point at the AEC when i teach it, and its because without good footwear, you probably WILL hurt yourself, weather its a cut, or a foot thats touching your calf after you fell running. Why does the military wear boots? Protection, longevity, reliability, and it keeps soldiers going even when hungry, thirsty, hot, cold, tired, wet, and running in rugged areas. It also effects your entire body depending on situation. look it up i beg you.

I hope this helps, as im late for a James Bond Seminar. Its Martini night afterall.

[Ghostbear]

Guys,
Stop.
This is not going to end well. And to be honest, this is just a rehash of the same crap that we seem to deal with when someone gets it in their heads that they have a better way to do this. Or just want to look the 'man' in the eyes of the younger crowd.

The AEC has been a standard for over a DECADE. Your decision to try to pick it apart is irrelevant, the standard is just as solid as it has been and more and more fields and teams are using it as a way to weed out the players that have no intention of playing a safe game or those that feel that they are safe simply because they attended a hunters safety course.

You started with a list of questions, they were answered. Then you take a swipe at the response.

You insinuate that you have some high moral authority over a safety course for airsoft.
That in some way, the selection of the instructors is flawed because it is done in house. Or that they need to posess some form of outside certification for the class to be 'worth it' to you.

Give me a break. Do you know how honestly stupid that sounds, and how stupid it makes you look?

WHO CERTIFYS THE RED CROSS INSTRUCTORS? THE RED CROSS DOES!
WHO CERTIFYS THE DOCTORS? THE STATE MEDICAL BOARD DOES.
WHO CERTIFYS THE MILITARY? THE MILITARY DOES !
STATE/LOCAL/FEDERAL GOVERMENT CERTIFICATION??? YOU GUESSED IT. THEY DO.

And NO, the state or local or federal has nothing to do with the Medical Board, nor The Red Cross, NOR the Military in the areas of certification. There is NOTHING that the state or local or FEDERAL Government passed as a LAW to say someone is a Ranger/SEAL/LURP/Green Beret or not. So, dont even TRY to go there. There is no local proficency that a doctor has to prove their ability to beyond the board, and that is not state run, but is made up of DOCTORS in the state that CERTIFY THEMSELVES. For Cripes sake, even the Boy Scouts certify themselves for merit badges. You want to bitch about the WAA certifying the instructors that they are in the most authority to actually certify?

You mention in your rebuttal the HAZMAT certification, you do realize that the actual CERTIFICATION is not given by the state, it isnt a Wisconsin State Certification, you probably didnt know that did you.

You dont like the shoe requirement, then dont wear them, play barefoot if that is what you want to do. But, I dont what to hear a peep when you turn your ankle and have to taken off the field by an ambulance. And God forbid anyone asks how you turned your ankle, because I will be brutally honest and say "because the idiot was wearing tennis shoes!".

Jesus, this is like dealing with a two year old.

Grow up, if you dont want to attend the class, then dont.

Dont expect to play at the ABZ field ever. As you are over the 18 year age limit, you can attend other games, so it probably wont matter to you.

If all you can do to help airsoft is to bash on a safety course then you just have a very sad and pathetic life. And if for some reason you feel that making a statement or stand like this to undermine the AEC is in some way your contribution to the game, I honestly pity you. Because if the only way you can feel good about yourself is to put down someone else, then you are a sad little person.

[Grey Knight]

:wide-eyed Umm... well, despite what was posted since A-Ron's last post:
Thank you A-Ron (and Loofah). That's exactly the kind of information I was looking for.
I apologize if I overcomplicated the issue.

And to everyone who was offended... please, chill, just a little bit.:cry: I was just curious and asking questions.
The "technical" (for lack of a better word) nature of my questions was not condescension. It was simply a means for me to try to get a detailed response.;)

[Downslide]

Grey Knight, I hope in retrospect, you realize that your "lawnmower repair class" comment was pretty much the cherry on top of your "taking this in the wrong direction sundae."

I can somewhat understand your interest in the details behind the course, but your approach to get the information came across as more of an attack or interrogation with an air of "holier than thou" than a "hey, I'm really interested in how this works" attitude.

The big thing that flagged for me was your chest puffing about the Hazmat and first responder (I am as well) and OSHA and GLP name dropping, then you fail to understand the significance of something as rudementary as ankle supporting, reinforced footwear. Where do we play 80% of this sport? Variable terrain, loose surfaces, Gopher holes, exposed roots, broken tree limbs, any number of environmental goodies to mess up your foot, and cause collateral ankle, knee, leg, hip, or even back damage. As a teenager I stepped on a stick in my backyard (non-airsoft related) with a tennis shoe on, and ended up in the ER with an inch of wood in the bottom of my foot. Hard soled boots JUST TO PREVENT THAT.


You also should be aware that you are not the first one to come across with the holier than thou attitude. In the past decade, it would be fairly accurate to say that at least once -- if not 2 or 3 times -- a year, somebody starts up half-kocked, ranting about how its a bunch of hooey. And, like you, NOT ONE OF THEM even contemplated the idea of actually TAKING the class before condemning it or trying to belittle its significance. Please keep that in mind when considering the responses you receive in a thread like this. Wether or not you intended to attack, that's the way it came across.

[seppuku]

The above posts were pruned from a discussion for a specific AEC to be held on 11/3/2007. If desired, please continue the general discussion about the WAA AEC here, and keep the other thread specifically for the 11/3 iteration of the class. Thanks! :)

[Ghostbear]

I will say that I came across as heavy on that last post of mine.

Did I intend it to be that heavy, kinda.

I understand questions, and that some people have to ask them to get a good feel for something. The problem that I had with the set of questions that were asked was the tone, and the follow up questions.

See, I have been at this for a long time, many people worked very hard to get the AEC to a place that people see a value to it, and have incorporated it into their fields, or teams safety programs. The course is designed to give you what you need to know for playing safe, it will give you practial means to see what we, as instructors, are telling you. And if you pay attention, even for a moment, you will see that there is alot that you can learn.

The reasons for my post were numerous, but probably more orientated toward my experience.

I have talked with GK via PM last night, we exchanged a few talking points and one of the items that I told him, and will tell you all here. To me questions came off as insulting. It cut to the core that what many people worked on for years was a joke, and that the energy and investment that was put into getting the AEC to this point was for no good reason. So, I did come down hard in return on my post.

I gave him an example though of a re-wording of the questions:

1: What use is this course to the attendee?
reworded:
1: I have heard that some places require the AEC to play, what other things will the AEC help with?

or

3: Who is teaching this and what certifications and experience do they have?
reworded:
3: I am assuming that the instructors for the AEC are WAA members, is there any additional training or certification that they have to have to teach the course?

both of these re-writes would have been much less agressive and less an insult than a question.

The reason that I am posting this, is not to get into nor continue an argument with Grey Knight. This medium of written text is very easy for the reader to add inflection to, you can read a statement one day, when your AEG just broke and hear something completely different then another day when you just got a check in the mail. The problem is that there is no real way to convey in the writing the tone or inflection of the intent. As you have read this post, you clearly have added inflection to what I have written. Was it aggressive, or angry, matter of factual, neutral or meek? What intent did I convey in the written words here over that of my thoughts as I wrote it? I wrote it in a calm manner with no agressive intent to it, but was it read that way?

Because of the inflection I read from the questions and the prior experience I have had with similar question sets only leading to huge flame wars on the forums, I came back hard in response to questions I felt were insulting to myself, the WAA, and to the many people that worked hard to get the AEC to where it is (past and present).

This is a good example of how things can and often do go in an unexpected direction from where you may have intended them to go when dealing with the written media.

Parting question: Do I have any animosity toward Grey Knight? No, I dont.

[Grey Knight]

OK. Clearly some people were offended.
It was not my intention to insult, but I recognize that some people may have felt this way, and I regret that.
In hindsight, I could have worded things better, but if my intention was nothing more than to piss people off and cause harm, rest assured I could have worded them a lot worse.
Though I’m sure some of you will tell yourself it’s nothing more than a convenient excuse on my part, but I was honestly curious about the technicalities behind my questions. I just worded it poorly. My curiosity is part of my personality. Hell, the only reason why I don’t flood this site full of “How does this work” threads is because I know it would annoy the snot out of people… but I digress.

Some people were quick to insist that it was my intent to insult and “undermine” the AEC/WAA, but if that was my intent, then I would not be here trying to patch things up. I’m a very sincere person and I hope you can accept that sentiment.

And for the record: no, I don’t think my working in a lab and all the stupid certs I have to go through for it (those classes are mostly sofa-king boring) qualifies me for teaching any safety course beyond expressing “common sense.”

I “took an eye,” and in return, some of you “took an eye, both arms, 4 ribs, and a lobe of my liver” through PM's. It has already gotten out of hand.:wide-eyed

This is my apology. I insulted some of you, and while it was not intentional from my perspective, it was from yours. So I also apologize for not taking your feelings into consideration.
I don’t know what else you want or what else I can do. We can either get past this together, and be able to gladly shake each others hand should we ever meet (and I would like nothing more), or we can continue to make it worse. It’s all up to you guys now.

I’m not sure what’s more disappointing:
That I have unintentionally done something to put my fellow forum members at odds with me.
Or that so some people, myself included, have allowed just one incident to succeed in doing so.

I hope you people someday see me as one of your own. I’m not holding my breath, and I suspect that neither are most of you, but it would be nice to know that people are capable of overlooking this incident and that I can be remembered for at least one positive contribution to the WAA.

[Ghostbear]

In 6 months this will all mean nothing.

I just hope it helps with people, myself included, to remember that words on forums are not spoken and when read can be taken in many different and unintended ways.

[A-Ron]

Can we sticky the useful information from this post, and put it up in the FAQ or keep it here in the Newcomer's Area? This way people can read what it is and what it is about, and we can also include a link to it in postings for future AECs.

[Downslide]

Grey.

I comend your stepping up and apologizing, even though you feel you are not at any conscious fault. That shows a lot about your character, and already changes my opinion of you.

Ghostbear's 100% accurate with this, in 6 months this will all mean nothing.


Come to the AEC in Nov, if you can. MEET us, sit in on it, and see what it, and WE, are all about. :]

A-Ron has a good point. WE (the AEC) should write up a FAQ about the AEC course and sticky it in the Newcomers section. I will try to scribble something up this weekend and post it in the Committee thread.

[kyledk]

how old do you ahve to be to take the class?:s

[A-Ron]

We haven't turned down anyone that the field doesn't turn down.
Meaning... If the field allows players 12 and up, we let people interested 12 and up attend.

[Professor]

Ah, cute kitten there ARon...ah, but I digress...on with the AEC discussion

[Professor]

FYI, its well worth attending...there is never a bad day when you can learn something and you do at an AEC....even us old guys can learn something new.

Check out the thread in the events section for the next upcoming AEC -> Nov 3rd at APOC.