2 on 2 matches in a barn

[sufi_army]

What does everyone think of this idea? 2 on 2 (or 1 on 1) matches in an abandoned, one story barn. the barn is approx 200 ft. long and 40 ft. wide. there is a wood pile that can be used as a barricade, and barricades, such as barrels, trash cans, and wooden ones will be set up for ultimate close-combat action.

[A-Ron]

I think it screams lawsuit.

[Maple]

Get a couple of doves flying in slow motion and some 3/4 length trench coats and you got yourself a John Woo movie. :D

In all seriousness, it sounds a bit dangerous to me.

[Texx]

I think it depends on whether or not you actually have permission to be on that property and whether or not any neighbors appreciate seemingly "heavily armed thugs" running around shooting each other.

2-on-2 games can be alot of fun. But you still have to remeber safety will determine whether 4 people come back for another game or 3 attend the 4th's funeral or whether you get a new definition of "2-on-2" in county lock-up, prior to being thrown to the ground at gunpoint by frightened police officers.

[blitz]

if your using this against me
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s82/sufi_army/ER-WELL-R7-M4-R.jpg


count me out... i dont have a scope and flashlight that good to aim with in cqb

[sufi_army]

yeah, youre right, it might be a little dangerous... any suggestions on how to cover up the concrete floor with something softer? maybe dirt?

oh, and it's on my property. and i'm just asking for peoples feedback, its just an idea

and to blitz, yeah thats the gun... be afraid, be very afraid. lol

[Wolfram]

If this is your family's barn: go for it If and only if...

1. You personally know all of the people showing up. You will be a good judge about whether these people are trustworthy enough to have on your property.

2. Your parents must be cool with the liability they will be taking on. They will want to call their insurance company to make sure if one of the particpants breaks an arm or shoots an eye out they won't loose the farm because one of your friends decides to sue them.

3. Talk to the neighbors and let them know what is going on. You are probably young and they'll think highly of you for being responsible. They won't call the cops if they know what you are doing.

4. Keep all guns in cases until you are in the barn. You might also want to wait on changing into tactical gear until you are out of sight. Come out of the barn -> guns go back into the cases. make sure everyone knows the rules on this

5. Safety first! Keep eye protection and good trigger control a priority.

The reason why alot of the "should I play here" posts get such flak is that airsoft guns are so realistic that any amount of bad press will get them banned and they can cause you serrious bodily harm if you shoot them at an eye or police officer. Use common sense and good judgement and you can play on your own property. Best of luck.

[kilroy]

If you could get a large enough stockpile you could cover the ground in cardboard:) , then if someone else in your family or whatever needs the barn you could just stack it all in the corner of the barn. Plus if the cardboard gets too dirty, wet, moldy, or bug/animal filled it is easily/cheaply available. Or you could get a whole lot of old gym mats and do the same.

[sufi_army]

thanks for the tips Wolfram

maybe cardboard wouldn't be the best idea, but keep them suggestions coming!

[kilroy]

sorry I had some red-green going through my head. In all seriousness foam or mats might work, dirt looks like a great way to go. The only problem I have seen from people who have done the dirt way is that after a few months to a year the dirt dries and then when you play you end up kicking up dust making it hard to breath and see. Well thats my oppinion.

[sniper-aab]

If you are doing those types of matches, make sure they are basically personal friends...too many things can happen in these types of games...trust me, I play them. As for padding, just layer the ground with straw from misc. broken bales...that's what my friends and I do. We are, however, moving away from these games due to safety issues and very close shooting...plus, the same area gets boring.

sniper-aab

[Downslide]

Look, I'm all for airsoft...But this whole thing screams "Bad Idea."

This is not the kind of thing that the Association condones. There are WAY too many variables involved that add up to impending disaster, in the physical, legal, and economic arenas.

I cannot stop you from going through with the idea, all I can do is say that I don't think its a good one, and one that should be discussed somewhere other than this forum. Sorry.

[DKruse]

I have one question for you, and one possible solution for one of your safety hazards.

Question: Where is this facility located, is it within a city's limits?

Problem: Cement floors.
Possible Solution: Sawdust.
Explanation: An Event that I went to in Eau Claire was played in a paintball building, complete with cement flooring, wood framed walls, and the ever-lasting doritos(sp) (unless shot by an AEG apparently heh). To protect the players, they had about 6 or so inches of sawdust on the floor. Of course, if you really dug into it, or you actually purposely pushed it away, the cement would be visible. But in all cases that I remember from when I jumped around I never once actually made contact with the cement. The only problem I had with it was when some of the old paint from the paintballs mixed with the sawdust it made it easier to attach to clothing, but it brushed off easily after the paint dried up (and of course you wouldn't have this problem, unless you did some paintballing too). Just an idea of course.

[Stelthturkey]

I don't know about sawdust. When Gary puts it down I end up running and kicking it up, then coughing my lungs out.

[TomE]

This just smells fishy.

Using saw dust on a cement floor can cause slippage, I would advise agenst it since thats what BFG paintball does and I have seen many a player fall and get injured due to it...

BTW that Well's is very fragile, if you fall on it you will crack it in half (I think blitz forgot the <sarcasm> tag again...)

[Kerrik13]

Sufi Army,
First of all, let me welcome you to the WAA boards. Hopefully you can find out good examples of how airsoft in Wisconsin is. Feel free to ask some questions because there are people on here that want to help.

Playing in someone's barn is really no different than playing on someone's land. As long as it is done in a proper, safe, legal, and intelligent manner, there really is nothing to stop you from doing so. CQB games can be quite fun to simulate SWAT games and counter-terrorist raids. The Fairchild, WI field that Airsoft Battle Zone owns has an indoor CQB facility so players can switch from outdoor fighting to indoor CQB raids. It should be quite fun!

The main question that I think everyone is asking is the location of the barn and if you have permission to be there. If it is located out of the city limits and on your property or the property of someone you know and have permission from, then by all means go for it. Playing inside of a building is not against the rules unless you are there against the owner's will.

As far as the equipment, consider wearing full face protection, covering all your exposed skin (long sleeves, etc) and wear gloves. I would also put a limit on the kind of firepower you use during the game. If you have access to a chrono, something below 320 fps is somewhat standard from the games that I have seen run in a CQB environment. I would also recommend not allowing full auto (unless you really want it) because in a CQB environment it isn't really necessary. Make sure each player is aware of the CQB environment and the fact that the action gets close; this gives them the option of putting on extra layers, thick gloves, and full paintball masks and such.

I don't think it would be necessary to cover the concrete floor in anything, really. I have played in several CQB games with concrete or hard tile floors (Manitowoc killhouse, Op Asylum, friend's basement, etc) and even full force high octane outdoor games in a town-simulated environment (Bedlam at CPX in Illinois) with asphalt ground and roads. As long as your common sense tells you not to do a face plant on the concrete floor, you will basically do fine. Just make sure you do everything you can to play safe... you've done a good job at coming online and asking questions. Feel free to ask a few more! :)

[sufi_army]

ok, i haven't checked this thread in a few hours so i have to reply to a lot of people

Downslide, this post is an event idea and is in the right section of the forums

DKruse, the barn is on my property, and out of city limits. sawdust may work, but the only problem is finding a lot of it to cover the whole (or most) of the floor

TomE, i don't plan on falling and snapping my gun

Kerrik13, thank you, you have been the most helpful person on this thread, the barn is on my property and i live in the country. i was debating on whether or not i should do just pistols, and i probably will, because i dont have a chronograph.

FYI to everybody, i live in the country and the barn was there when we moved there, so there is no hay or any other farm stuff in there.

[youth in asia]

yea, a pistols only CQB game can be really fun. they are also the best weapon to use in such tight quaters!

[Maple]

Sufi-
You may or may not like what we all have to say, but many of us have been doing this for a long time, so if you are going to ask for suggestions/ advice/ comments, be prepared to read things that you might not like.

There are many factors that can potentially make or break this whole idea. It sounds like you have made up your mind already and plan on holding "matches", so be warned of the possibility of danger, not only physically, but economically.

1. Check your local ordinaces about the discharge of air powered weapons. You may be outside of a town/ city, but that doesn't mean it's legal. So check into it.... better safe than sorry.
2. Is the barn or the area that you would use for staging out of sight of the neighbors? If not, then go and talk to them about what you are doing. If they are opposed, then don't do it.
3. You best talk to a lawyer before having airsoft games on your parents property. A simple lawsuit can cost them their house, cars, etc.
Be aware that you cannot legally have an event if you are under 18 years old. Your parents are responsible for your well being until you are 18, so if somebody gets hurt, it's their asses on the line.
4. Your parents will lose their homeowners insurance if somebody gets hurt while playing airsoft in their barn and decides to sue.
5. If you have never played in an actual CQB event, I would suggest doing so before holding one of your own. There are increased safety measures that should be taken when bb's traveling at 350fps hit targets from point blank ranges. (It will happen, no matter what you do or say, people will get shot from point blank)
6. Get a chrono, set an FPS limit and stick to it.
7. Did I mention safety. Yup, but I thought I'd bring it up again.
8. Determine any hazards (outside of flying bbs) that the barn has and correct the problems. Last thing you need is somebody falling through a hay chute.
9. Make a set of safety/ game play rules and stick to them. If people break the rules, make penalties.... like: you break the rules, get the :censored: off my property.
10. Safety, safety, safety.

From reading your posts, it sounds like you are going (if you have not already) forward with the idea. If you choose not to listen to what folks have to say, be aware that a problem can and most likely will occur, which can lead down a road that you and your family may not want to walk down.
We may all sound like assholes, but it is better to be an informed asshole who still owns a house and car, then a goodwilled parent who has nothing because their kid had an airsoft game in their barn.
-mat

[Kerrik13]

Maple touched base on a lot of good points; they are worth looking into.

Also, I don't know the exact ruling, but my aunt and uncle do a lot of deer and turkey hunting on various people's land. They looked into some laws about liability and such and in Wisconsin and if you use someone's land for recreational purposes and you were not charged money to be there, then it is very hard for you to sue anyone. The second you charge money for those events, you then are liable for stuff that happens and goes wrong because of it then basically becoming a "business transaction".

My advice, with the liability issues and such, is to find a generalized sports waiver that you can tailor to your property and have people sign off on it before they play. Then, make sure that you do not charge any money for people to be there and then it will fall under the "free recreational use of someone's land in Wisconsin" category.

If you are looking for cheap ways to make some barricades and such for the barn, buy some really thick colored tarps from Wal-Mart. A guy on my team actually turned his basement into a CQB house. He "bullet proofed" the lights, windows, and anything he didn't want shot. Then he ran shower curtain hooks through the top of the tarps and connected them to clothesline wires running across the basement ceiling. This allows him to make barricades and such that can be moved from time to time to changeup the layout. Get the thick tarps though... BBs will punch through the thin ones. His basement is very small, maybe 20' x 20', so as a result we suit up with extra layers of padding, go with full face protection, and wear gloves because we don't use the bang rule in his basement. (Please note that I am not telling anyone to not use the bang rule or emphasizing that the bang rule should not be used, it is just a house rule that has been tailored to fit in this specific environment that a few of us have played in.) If you limit the FPS and fully expect close range shots (and prepare accordingly) then the close range shooting isn't too bad.

I would also highly recommend that you run the first few games with close friends before letting any other people into a CQB match. Because you are new at this, it may take you a few games to "get your feet wet" and know what you can and can't do during a game. Once you feel more comfortable with handling people coming over to play, then I would recommend bringing more people out to play.

This sounds like it good be a lot of fun... where are you located at? If it is within a reasonable driving distance, I might come out to give you a hand sometime :)

[Loofah]

Probably not a good idea at all.

A)Your a minor
B)Its unsafe
C)it has the potential to become, well.....deadly in the worst case scenario.

Also-anyone telling him to do it-you should just stop. We know nothing factual over the internet about this person/barn/property/etc.

[Downslide]

I've got to say that I agree with Loofah.

Something just doesn't feel right. I don't kow if it is the term "Abandoned," or the fact that he's a minor, or that its his parent's barn (who probably have no idea what he's planning/intending), the gear, the materials implied in the first couple of posts, I don't know.

maybe if you took some pictures of the barn and posted them, so we could get a more accurate idea of the condition of the "abandoned" building, it might change things...

[Stelthturkey]

Heh, abandoned barn... Brings back old memories. Springer pistols, taking a full auto burst from and aeg in the face from 2 feet away, Leppy with his angry rampages, and Byrnzy running into that tree as I chased him. Not safe...

[Kerrik13]

Loofah,

Sufi Army has come onto the boards to get ideas on gametypes and such. He has taken a step farther than most people by coming on and asking questions in relation to him playing airsoft on his families land. Based on the information presented to the people on this forum, the land is owned by him and his family, they live in the country, and he is taking advice on how to run some CQB games. There is nothing unsafe (so far) that has been presented in his description of the gametypes being played, so with all that being presented, there is no reason why he can't play airsoft on his family property.

Now, if he said he wants to cram 60 people into a 3 story old broken down barn in the middle of town, have people swinging in the rafters, and use m80 firecrackers to simulate grenades, THEN there would be a reason to discourage him from doing so. But he said he wants to try 2 on 2 games (so roughly 4 or a few more people showing up to play), on his parent's property in the country, in a one story barn with a cement floor, is taking advice on safety tips, and has come to an online airsoft forum to ask questions related to his game. Nothing negative has been presented, so I think helping him with advice on safe CQB rules is far better than just saying "Don't do it".

Several years ago I attended a game at the Manitowoc Killhouse that members of TFD hosted. Tons of people showed up and it was either in town or right on the outskirts of town (cannot confirm... based off of relative close proximity of neighbors and such. Feel free to define if you know) because you could see the neighbors houses nearby and it was right off of a main road. It was explained to me that notification of games there are presented to neighbors and such ahead of time, so they were used to games out there (cannot confirm... this was at least 3 years ago). We played in a small polebarn that had cement floor, full seal goggles were not required (at least I think they weren't... again, 3 years ago so I don't remember entirely), full face protection was not required (sure of this... I remember seeing the welts on peoples faces), we had a fog machine going, and the last game was basically a 30+ minute close quarters respawn fest where you played until you were sick of it. A random person driving by called the police because they saw militant people in a yard and a squad car showed up, but because proper people were (I believe) informed ahead of time, the police officers were talked to for a moment and then they left. Loofah (Timmay), Kennedy, Nightstalker, Rogue, Beest, myself, Professor, Tank, and a whole slew of other well known players were there and everyone had an absolute blast! This is just one example of a CQB game I've been to... some may have said that Manitowoc game was unsafe and unfit for play, but as a person who attended the game, I felt it was safe and a lot of fun.

I feel strongly about encouraging sufi army to play as long as everything is approved, legal, and safe and to listen to advice instead of shooting him down entirely. If you think about it, players are going to play anyway. Let's do everything we can to help coach them to make it safe instead of them leaving the board with no safety tips and playing anyway.

EDIT: (Add on instead of double post)

Something just doesn't feel right. I don't kow if it is the term "Abandoned," or the fact that he's a minor, or that its his parent's barn (who probably have no idea what he's planning/intending), the gear, the materials implied in the first couple of posts, I don't know.

Actually, my parent's own an abandoned barn on the Merrimac field that my team is turning into a CQB house sometime in the future :P

I do agree that I would feel 100% better if Sufi Army could verify that everything has been approved and is fine with his parents.

[Cochesse]

I agree with Kerrik I would love to play a CQB game, and I am sure lots of my guys would also like to play. as long as everything is looked after and people follow the rules I don't see a big deal with it. So sufi_army if you are going to run the game please let me know.

[kilroy]

Sufi Army,
What kind of eye/face/head protection are you and your friends going to be using?
I have a cousin who was playing with his dumb friends in a close area and one of his friends was using a CO2 desert eagle and ended up shooting out the tooth of his other friend. I know you might be using mid-powered springers and AEG's but its still no fun getting a close range blast of bb's in the mouth/face.IMO you should at least require full seal goggles if not full face mask.

[Kerrik13]

Sufi Army,
What kind of eye/face/head protection are you and your friends going to be using?
I have a cousin who was playing with his dumb friends in a close area and one of his friends was using a CO2 desert eagle and ended up shooting out the tooth of his other friend. I know you might be using mid-powered springers and AEG's but its still no fun getting a close range blast of bb's in the mouth/face.IMO you should at least require full seal goggles if not full face mask.

For that exact reason I go with a nice thick balaclava or a paintball mask. Plus, solid shots to the cheeks and neck are 15 feet tend to sting! :P

[Maple]

Plus, solid shots to the cheeks and neck are 15 feet tend to sting! :P
A double tap to the nuts from 3 feet stings even worse.... right Beest. :o

[Texx]

A quintuple tap from a Hicapa to the knuckle can leave your hand numb. Just ask Mrs. Armsdealer. ;)

[Jakael]

I think it sound fun. You are obviosly thinking a lot about safety, so try and take a bit of advice from evryones posts. I would highly reccomend paintball masks or full seals and mouthgaurds, also some sort of fps limit is a definite need. Good job on your questions and concerns. If this does go through I might have to come play a game or two with y'all. Jakael

[Beest]

LMAO!!! F^ckers!!!

Different situation> I cannot describe how happy I was when I snuck up behind Timmay and he missed...... I was so close I could smell the gas................

[sufi_army]

ok, i didn't really have time to reply to anybody tonight since i had a track meet and a birthday party to go to. so here goes.

To Maple, to be honest, i don't like all of the negative feedback people have about this, but some of it is constructive. and helps some.

To Kerrik13, thanks, i was sort of aware of the "business transaction" stuff and will look more into that. that tarp idea is good but the barn doesn't have a ceiling (my dad took it out).

To Loofah, I am a minor, and my parents know about this. Safety measures can be taken. and just because you know nothing about me, my barn, or my property you automatically think it's a bad idea? look into it a bit more, give it a chance before you shoot it down like that.

To Downslide, the barn isn't really abandoned, its just not used. My parents do know about it, FYI. I'll try to get some pics up soon.

To Cochesse, Kerrik13, Jakael, and anyone else whos interested, once I run some games with my team (Harmattan Brigade), I will know more people on this forum on a more personal level. then i will notify people if i run an event.

To kilroy, i'll probly require full face protection, or at least full seal goggles, for this.

i will post a list of rules (open for discussion) soon, after i compile everyone's suggestions

-sufi_army

[element365]

You asked what we thought about it, and you got your answers. Why even ask if you've clearly already made up your mind? Sounds like you're just looking for approval.


just because you know nothing about me, my barn, or my property you automatically think it's a bad idea? look into it a bit more, give it a chance before you shoot it down like that

Alright, but since we don't know anything about you other than your age, nobody can say it's a good idea either. All we know is that a 15 year old who has never played airsoft before wants to hold a CQB game in his barn. Thats bad news all over. Do you have the life experience and maturity to handle the situation if something goes wrong? Hell, I know that I don't.

[kilroy]

originally posted by element365:
All we know is that a 15 year old who has never played airsoft before wants to hold a CQB game in his barn. Thats bad news all over. Do you have the life experience and maturity to handle the situation if something goes wrong? Hell, I know that I don't.

Let's not all flame him because of his age, If any of you are boy scouts you would know that there are alot of people/children out there with a varying degree of maturity. I myself have seen 11 year olds that are more mature than 16-18 year olds. So now I think we should let him decide what his level of maturity is along with the decision of how mature his friends are. If he has a friend or so who is always the one to do the stupid things then he can decide how much liability he wants. This wasn't written to anger anyone, these are just my oppinions and views. If I have angered anyone I apologize, but I felt it was something I had to say.

[sufi_army]

I have played airsoft before, I'm looking for advice, not approval, and I and all close friends and family will agree that I am very mature for my age.

And just like kilroy said, I didn't write anything to make people mad, and I'm sorry if I did.

[Downslide]

I think my point has been missed.

I wasn't trying to flame him or blow him off as a punk immature kid.

I'm an old fart and I know some 15 year olds who are more mature than some people my age. I wasn't attacking his character or age.

I was focusing on the information (or lack there of) in his posts and pointing out the probable issues that could arise. He did use the word "abandoned" in his original post. In the midwest, if you describe a barn as such, most people will picture one of those 400 year old, rotted wood, uber-ventilated barns that are about ready to collapse if someone leans on them.

The picture of the "UBER-L337 SNIPORZ COOL GUY GUN" in his sig also implies a certain mindset/experience level/ability in the airsofting community.

I just think that WE need more detailed information before we should start giving any kind of blanket approval.

[sufi_army]

Ok, I admit, I was a little vague on the details at first but hopefully they're all cleared up. And I was at first planning on using the gun in my sig but that was before people gave me advice and said that it would be dangerous. You got to remember, I'm pretty new at this and have never had/been to a CQB before See, instead of saying that it's too dangerous, and nothing else, people can give advice to help make it less dangerous.

[sufi_army]

Ok, after reading over everything twice, I compiled a list of things for me to think about:

-pistols only (no full auto/burst)
-covering up the concrete floor?
-notifying the neighbors
-fps limit (320ish)
-calling insurance company and lawyer
-extra clothing/gloves
-full face protection
-run a few games with personal friends first
-make sure its legal in my town
-not charge money for people to be there
-sports waiver
-safer barricades

I will try to get pics up soon. If anything is missing from this list please let me know.

-sufi_army

[Downslide]

AWESOME!

I am really glad to see you taking the posts in this thread in the right way. You've put together a very good list of the things you need to check/collect, and as such should be able to have all your bases covered when you get done with them.

Please keep us updated, because if it pans out well, you could have a lot of interest! [:Y:]

[sufi_army]

Thanks, I told you I was looking for advice, heheheh....

-sufi_army

[Kerrik13]

Sufi Army,

Although it may seem like some people have just shot down your idea of playing in a barn just on the principle of you being underaged, please note that this comes from a long history. Veteran players in this association have seen a lot of new people participate in very unsafe actions and no matter what advice was given to them, they decided not to listen. It isn't fair to mature underaged players, but the problems tend to arrise more commonly with younger people.

From your recent post it looks like you have been taking the advice on this boards seriously which is very good. It also shows to others on this board that you are more mature than some other new players we have all seen. Keep up the good work, feel free to continue asking for advice, and I wish you luck on getting into this awesome sport :)