USA TODAY Airsoft Article

[AggressiveSportsJoliet]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-12-18-fake-firearms_x.htm

fairly balanced, coulda been worse...

[A-Ron]

...
Authenticity is the main attraction of airsoft guns, says Justin Brown, who owns Aggressive Sports Joliet in Illinois. "They're so popular because they do look realistic," he says.
Brown estimates that as many as 1 million enthusiasts have donned camouflage to play at soldiering or law enforcement in competitions held on private land.
The guns, sometimes used as movie props, shoot plastic pellets using spring, electric or gas power. Brown says collectors appreciate that they can buy airsoft guns without the waiting periods, background checks or permits usually required in buying real firearms. This particular part could have been said better on the inerviewie part and written better on USA Today's part. But we all know journalists are just in it for a "one sided" story.


...Chris Cox, the NRA's chief lobbyist, says metal BB guns and the newer plastic pellet versions are part of the traditional way young people have learned to shoot. A ban, he says, is "unrealistic" and "a solution in search of a problem."
But its nice to know we have someone/thing on our side.

[Downslide]

Someone/something on our side? Sure, at the moment. But don't for one second take sollace from the shelter of the NRA. When push comes to shove, the NRA will offer up airsoft replicas as a sacrificial lamb to the wolves so fast it will make your head spin.

[A-Ron]

Oh no doubt

[Texx]

Real guns are obiously evil.

Airsoft gun look like a real gun, and are therefore images of evil.

People who own airsoft guns are harbingers of evil.

People who want their airsoft guns to look more like real guns are obviously evil-doers.

I will pray for all of you....except for myself, because I'm only evil because its cool.

[Chief]

I'll tell you right now, all it's gonna take is one high profile "incedent", and we're screwed. The fact we still opperate, for the most part, under the radar, is our savior. I agree with you Texx, our image isn't exactly stellar in the public eye, but what do ya do.

[youth in asia]

i think that if airsofters and the events could give something back to the people, it would make us look better when/if a high profile incident happens. some ideas:

-remove those crappy guns from wal-mart/dicks/etc. so that they arent as available to people who want/would use them in an inproper way.

-raise money at airsoft games to give to charities

-invite police officers to come play at some airsoft games. it can show that most of the airsoft players in the state use their guns responsibly and abide the law while playing. having some officers on our side for when an incident happens is a very good thing.

-have some sort of awareness get-together and invite the community. educate the people on what airsoft is actually about.

-run more safety programs/AECs throughout the state so that people who just started airsofting can learn how to be safe with their guns.

-write informative articles to newspapers

-write letters to government officials.

these are just some ideas. some might work, some might not. but i think that as an airsoft community, we need to ban together to makes sure that this sport isnt ruined by a couple of bad apples.

[79TransAm]

I'll tell you right now, all it's gonna take is one high profile "incedent", and we're screwed. The fact we still opperate, for the most part, under the radar, is our savior. I agree with you Texx, our image isn't exactly stellar in the public eye, but what do ya do.

What we got to do is start planning to combat anti airsoft legislation, we need to promote safe use of airsoft guns(perhaps run a airsoft training course like the MAA does a few times a year) Retailers, whether they be high end like Airsoft Battle Zone or the wargame room or low end like walmart, kmart, shopko,etc, if they allready havent, need to start limiting who they sell guns too and the airsoft associations around the country need to make it clear that they do not endorse,promote,nor facilitate dangerous or illegal airsoft play and offer assistance to local authorties, make themselves available to the press, and make an effort to educate parents and youngsters on the proper way to transport and play with your airsoft gun. On the individual level we all need to take steps to discourage dangerous or illegal play. If your friends or others are not being safe its up to you to intervene and try to educate them, if they still wont listen depending on age you should talk to their parents, school officals, and if need be report it to the police.
Airsoft is no longer under the radar and everybody needs to be prepared to do what they need to inorder to protect our hobby. It wont be long untill we start to face legislation

[AggressiveSportsJoliet]

"Brown says collectors appreciate that they can buy airsoft guns without the waiting periods, background checks or permits usually required in buying real firearms."

This was a complete fabrication as it never came out of my mouth. The rest was paraphrasing. Overall it was pretty good, and actually showed the Airsoft communities point of view a little. This is the first major publication Airsoft story I have seen that did that.

[TomE]

Justin thanks for giving input into that article, God knows how it would have been written if someone like yourself wasn't willing to answer a few questions. I also would like to thank Kevin Skerrett from the MAA if happens upon this post.

Thanks guys.

[sniper-aab]

Well, we can add one more story to the collection of...stories...that are giving airsoft a bad name. A senior that goes to my high school (not a friend) took acid two days ago, and ended up rolling his mom's car. He then took his airsoft pistol from the back of the car and stole a bag of chips at gun point (with the airsoft pistol) and stole a car and took off. He was caught and is now facing up to 45 years in prison and up to $100,000 fine. He is a dumb arse.

Sigh...just one more story that will lead to the outlawing of airsoft...

Oh, on his way to the crime scene, one of the local cops lost control of his squad car and ran into a tree, lanscaping rock, and side of a building. He wasn't hurt.

Hope this was semi-relevant

sniper-aab

[Jun Wen]

That particular story was on Fark, I think.
http://www.postcrescent.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061219/APC0101/61219013/1003/APCnews

[DKruse]

Jason, thanks for a giving your time to them and posting us a link to read it, Nice job. (PS, can't wait for CT4 haha.)

Sniper-AAB... IMO, it's a bit off topic... since the topic is about a news article that kinda puts airsoft in the gooder basis, and yours is a bad basis :)

[seppuku]

I agree that the article was well-rounded and mostly impartial. Personally, I think that making it illegal to brandish realistic-looking toy guns in public isn't such a bad thing.

Like Mr. asia is saying, the more positive light we can preemptively shed on airsoft, the better off we are as a community. I'd rather the WAA be the spokesperson for airsoft in Wisconsin, than have Johnny B. Dumbass preaching the merits of the sport by holding up a 7-Eleven with his Blue Light special. :burp:



Well, we can add one more story to the collection of...stories...that are giving airsoft a bad name. A senior that goes to my high school (not a friend) took acid two days ago, and ended up rolling his mom's car. He then took his airsoft pistol from the back of the car and stole a bag of chips at gun point (with the airsoft pistol) and stole a car and took off. He was caught and is now facing up to 45 years in prison and up to $100,000 fine. He is a dumb arse.

Sigh...just one more story that will lead to the outlawing of airsoft...

Oh, on his way to the crime scene, one of the local cops lost control of his squad car and ran into a tree, lanscaping rock, and side of a building. He wasn't hurt.

Hope this was semi-relevant

sniper-aab
How.....unambitious of him. ;)

[sniper-aab]

Sniper-AAB... IMO, it's a bit off topic... since the topic is about a news article that kinda puts airsoft in the gooder basis, and yours is a bad basis

Okay...it just seemed like the place to post the story...you're right, it does sort of "kill the mood" so to speak.

Feel free to delete if you deem necessary.

sniper-aab

[Maple]

First of all, thanks for posting the link. Always good to see vendors/ veteran players/ retailers taking the opportunity to step up and put their name out there trying to promote safe airsoft.
:)


As for those of you thinking aloud about running more safety classes, talking with LE, etc. one thing you have to remember is that we as a community (not just the WAA, but all of us on the forums/ who play airsoft together) can only do so much.
I am willing to bet that most, if not all, of the guys getting caught breaking the law (or just plain acting a fool in public) with airsoft guns do not frequent airsoft forums or go to organized games. More likely than not, they bought a springer from a uncaring retailer and have no intentions of playing "airsoft" as we know it.
So how do you stop people like this? Honestly, I don't think you can. Sure, you could take all of the springers out of Wal-Mart (or other like stores) and that still wouldn't solve the problem. I have witnessed "responsible" airsoft retailers selling springers (or low end aegs) with little thought other than the money they are making. Now what is to stop an "unresponsible" retailer from doing the same?

So yes, making better relationships with LE or government officials will make the general airsoft community look more responsible, but "we" are not the folks that are going to get airsoft banned. It is the dumbasses who don't "play" airsoft that will bring bans to the sale or ownership of airsoft guns.

[Kerrik13]

Very true, Maple... I agree that the serious airsofter is not the person that will get our sport banned. But if we take a proactive approach and show law enforcement that there is a way to maturely handle airsoft then at least it might help us (the serious airsofter) not be targeted by bans and legislation.

If serious airsofters keep guns in cases and only play on fields, then it probably won't hurt us if they crack down on public displays of airsoft guns. If we show that there is a way to be responsible and that we are a positive sport, then perhaps actions will be taken to control rampant stupid use of airsoft but still allow us to play. If we don't let the state know that there is serious and safe airsofters out there, then the only airsoft these people will ever know is the stupid people bringing airsoft guns to school.

[Maple]

Too true.
Hell, I would be a happy little Jew if public display of airsoft guns carried more (illegal) weight than it already does. Along those lines, I am also a big advocate for banning sales to minors, but that's a different debate.

I agree that a proactive approach is a good thing, but in the end, no matter how good we make "our type" of airsoft look, bannings will occur because of asshats who don't play airsoft, but own the guns.

[youth in asia]

i dont think that stopping the sale of airsoft guns at big box stores would solve the problem, but it would help. i think any little thing that will help keep people from using airsoft guns poorly is something that should be persued.

[Texx]

I don't see it as stopping anything either. If the government steps in to ban one airosft gun, what's to prevent them from doing it to all of them. They aren't going to take the time to characterize and ban them, that would mean they would have to take the time to educate themselves about the issue.

If they did that, they couldn't go around making ignorant snap decisions. What kind of government would that be that didn't make decisions when there was a impassioned outcry devoid of logic and intelligence...

[Maus]

/Rant on

I got into airsoft because the guns I wanted to get in real steel are too expensive (cost prohibitive) or illegal to civillians. Why is this? Because of the import ban of 89. The government banned all the "cool" stuff and overnight a 700.00 firearm went up to 2K. Why did they do this? Some nut shot up a school yard. How did they do this? Someone in politics all their life and most likely never shot a gun in their life was handed a gun digest. They banned everything black, green and scary looking. Now law abiding people have to pay 4 or 5 times what its worth.

These are the same people that will ban airsoft. Uneducated (about airsoft) and uncaring about the law abiding. Rest assured the NRA wont lift a finger to stop them either. These arent firearms, they are toys. Pull out the box your Mauri AEG came in. It says toy right on the side. The same argument being made here is the same argument that was made in 89 about real steel. Some nut wont break the law with their 1000.00 AEG, just like criminals dont use a 3K Steyr AUG to carjack someone. They use the cheapest thing they can buy from a pawn shop or steal from a law abiding citizen....or buy from walmart or other big box store. /Rant off.

[79TransAm]

I don't see it as stopping anything either. If the government steps in to ban one airosft gun, what's to prevent them from doing it to all of them. They aren't going to take the time to characterize and ban them, that would mean they would have to take the time to educate themselves about the issue.

If they did that, they couldn't go around making ignorant snap decisions. What kind of government would that be that didn't make decisions when there was a impassioned outcry devoid of logic and intelligence...

While i agree for the most part. Most slippery slope arguments or fears usually wind up being unfounded

[Cereal Killer]

Well, I am happy that we finally have airsoft in the paper, and its good!

Anywho, if it ever gets to the point where a ban is being proposed, would licensing be an option? I know it would suck to go and get a license, but it's a last ditch effort that is a hellofa lot better than not airsofting at all. Although, I hope it never get's that far.

Either way, I'm happy to read someting good for once.

[Maple]

Well, I am happy that we finally have airsoft in the paper, and its good!

Anywho, if it ever gets to the point where a ban is being proposed, would licensing be an option? I know it would suck to go and get a license, but it's a last ditch effort that is a hellofa lot better than not airsofting at all. Although, I hope it never get's that far.

Either way, I'm happy to read someting good for once.
CK, I doubt something like lisc. would really be considered. In the eyes of most law makers, we are the same as the guys sticking up people with WalMart specials.
Most people will not care enough to differentiate between Milsim players (I use the term for all of us who play controlled, organized games) vs. folks carrying them into schools. Unlike a real firearm, nobody will care enough when writting a law to specify that it is okay to "use them on privately owned land in a military recreation event".

[armsdealer]

We need to educate people/parents NOW. Create Awareness for how we push safety and proper handling. Now what role could the WAA have in this.

[A-Ron]

We need to educate people/parents NOW. Create Awareness for how we push safety and proper handling. Now what role could the WAA have in this. Why do we need to do it "NOW"?
This ****s been going on since the damn guns have came out (in referance to the low grade guns you buy at "any" store these days). It hasn't changed, and the same bills are being pushed every time something happens. But something happens along the way of it being pushed through, nothing we can really control.

My question is what happens if they do ban airsoft guns? What happens to all the people who own them? What happens to their gear? Are they going to start searching to make sure people have gotten rid of them?

[armsdealer]

When exactly should we start doing something?

[A-Ron]

Why do "we" have to do anything? Why does the organization have to put their foot in the door and possibly get shut down? Why does it matter now compared to three years ago when the same kind of incidents were happening?

EDITING TO INCLUDE
Why do "we" as an organization need to step into the doorway and say "We're going to educate the public?" You know more incidents are going to happen happen, and who is to blame then? The WAA for not "'educating" well enough or as often as someone thinks we should?


Now getting in touch with law enforcement and possibly getting a lobbist or two to help us with the political side of this crap, thats a good idea!

[TomE]

It takes an effort to change a tide. I have had to do it over and over again in a different hobby that I belong to. But grass roots have to start somewhere. If someone sees you start making an effort they will join that effort and bring in a few friends to do it with them and so on. Look at the ARRL we have over 140,000 members and we can lobby for certain rule changes and have been successful in turning the tide on a few programs (BPL is the largest one we have right now http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/). I am a member of the ARRL and understand why its significant to be a member. Now if the WAA wants to take on the education of the community or leave it to someone else, thats up to them. I know alot of people aren't joining the WAA because they just don't see a benefit to being a member YET. Now if you change that you will start seeing an inflow of membership and with that you can start achieving some major things.

[79TransAm]

Why do "we" have to do anything? Why does the organization have to put their foot in the door and possibly get shut down? Why does it matter now compared to three years ago when the same kind of incidents were happening?

EDITING TO INCLUDE
Why do "we" as an organization need to step into the doorway and say "We're going to educate the public?" You know more incidents are going to happen happen, and who is to blame then? The WAA for not "'educating" well enough or as often as someone thinks we should?


Now getting in touch with law enforcement and possibly getting a lobbist or two to help us with the political side of this crap, thats a good idea!

No disrespect, but if this eventualy does come to blows, aittitudes like yours are going to be what eventually leads to the over legislation of airsoft in this state in my opnion, and like I said I mean no disrespect to you. It is better to be prepared and have a good postive image then to sit back and simply say this too shall pass, which it very well could. Im not saying we need to go into panic mode, but I dont see the downside to trying implement some of the ideas brought forth by people in this thread. The MAA does not take these things lightly and that is exactly why they will prevail and why people are beating the door down to try and become a member.

[Texx]

Why do "we" as an organization need to step into the doorway and say "We're going to educate the public?" You know more incidents are going to happen happen, and who is to blame then? The WAA for not "'educating" well enough or as often as someone thinks we should?

You're absolutely right. Why should an Association who's founding charter is to educate, promote and work to protect the very hobby it is representing in this state stick its neck out to fulfill it's founding goals?

And why should they even try to protect the hobby, when it might result in bad things being said or done. Maybe change the name to WAAAAAH - what kiddies do when bad things hurt their feelings while running away from the actual problem...

[seppuku]

Why do "we" have to do anything? Why does the organization have to put their foot in the door and possibly get shut down? Why does it matter now compared to three years ago when the same kind of incidents were happening?

EDITING TO INCLUDE
Why do "we" as an organization need to step into the doorway and say "We're going to educate the public?" You know more incidents are going to happen happen, and who is to blame then? The WAA for not "'educating" well enough or as often as someone thinks we should?


Now getting in touch with law enforcement and possibly getting a lobbist or two to help us with the political side of this crap, thats a good idea!
Unfortunately, we can't take action three years ago, but we can take action now. I think that's better than sitting idly by as bad incidents continue to pile up, tainting the image of airsoft. I think starting with Law Enforcement is an excellent idea though.

Oh, and here is what Texx was snidely and sarcastically referring to: WAA Charter and Rules of Conduct (http://wiairsoft.com/documents/charter.pdf).

[A-Ron]

I never said for the WAA not to do this, I asked why it falls upon "us" as an association. It's funny, to me at least, that its the non-members that are pointing fingers at "us" to get the job done. When the association asks for support, nobody offers up their hand, paying their dues, to help out.

Now onto the topic at hand...

I do agree that we need to continue our AEC, and trust you me, you will see them this year. A lot more than last year will be going, thats a promise. So we will in fact be offering our hand in "helping educate" as you do point out.
In turn, I feel (just what I'm thinking, ya; know) that it would benefit you as airsoft players of Wisconsin to help out a little. How do you help out? EASY! Help the association, put your ideas in the mix at the meetings, on the associations private boards, offer up advice, say what you think need be done on actual matters at hand, not complaining something that happens in the news, in a different state, and saying "It can happen to us!"
Oh but wait.. It's to much to ask for you to join and actually pay isn't it? Sorry, I guess we have to draw the line then.
The members can only do so much with the given forces, and with the lack of manpower, how do you expect we go about it?


I wasn't kidding about the lobbyist idea, or the idea of getting better involved with local law enforcement agencies. I think it would benefit us greatly to have someone on the political side of things, as well as having our foot in the door to show the police, around the areas of major problems, that there are actually responsible players out there.

[seppuku]

I never said for the WAA not to do this, I asked why it falls upon "us" as an association. It's funny, to me at least, that its the non-members that are pointing fingers at "us" to get the job done. When the association asks for support, nobody offers up their hand, paying their dues, to help out.
A-Ron makes an excellent point. There is absolutely nothing preventing any non-member here from going the organization and trying to make a difference. We have several new members and there are lots of motivated folks looking to move the organization forward.

[Defender 1]

Show us what that $35 does and maybe you'll have some joiners.

[A-Ron]

What can we show you? We can show you a patch, membership ID, and a discount (I believe) at a store in the Eau Claire area.

What do you gain in the long run?
Well for one, you will help promote the longevity of the sport, and how to play safe and properly. There are a lot of other things in the mix as of right now, and among those is insurance for WAA sanctioned games. Probably later down the line would be discounts to events for WAA members.


What do you want to see come from your $35? A bunch of really cool gifts, mouse pads, pens, pencils?


Hell, I joined to help the AEC, I didn't care what way the association might go, be it good or bad. I just want to get the AECs up and running again, and I am doing just that.

[Texx]

I never said for the WAA not to do this, I asked why it falls upon "us" as an association. It's funny, to me at least, that its the non-members that are pointing fingers at "us" to get the job done. When the association asks for support, nobody offers up their hand, paying their dues, to help out.

Is that it, then? There are not enough contributors in the Association to get this done? Why do we expect the association to get this done? Because that is what the Association claims it is there to do. If non-members can't trust an association to do what it claims it is there to do, then how do you expect anyone to want to support it?

Yeah, it is crummy that fingers are being pointed. But if you are going to take on that job to protect and promote, you'd better expect that when its not being done the people that want to believe in you are going to lose faith.

And being given all of the support in the state may boost the membership, but if people aren't willing to do the jobs they originally signed on to do, don't you think that is going to look bad on the association, itself?

And no, we don't have to be members of the Association to do our part to protect the hobby. But the Association also needs to take the initiave to do the job it is there to do. If the current principle is to hide from the issues and hope everything turns out ok, then perhaps the charter should be amended to cover that shift in policy.

Its not unreasonable for potential members to want to know what exactly their support for the association is going to give them. If its just to get a patch and a laminated card and access to an extra couple of forums, then fine. But come on, the community claims to be about Protecting and Promoting. Is it that unreasonable to expect it to stand up for those ideals?

[Razor]

What do you want to see come from your $35? A bunch of really cool gifts, mouse pads, pens, pencils?


Yes, yes, and yes. :D I do believe though that even small steps (local LE in 1 area, 1 officer at a time) done by an organization (whichever does it) will start the ball rolling to bigger & better things. An individual could do that too, but entities like associations, organizations, leagues, guilds, covens have a common voice and, whether they are or not, lend credibility to the cause. Take the AARP. Alone 60,000+ old people would be annoying to get mail from in DC. Now take 1 letter with the weight of 60,000+ people behind it and otherwise indifferent parties tend to take notice. Because that 60,000+ "please help us" could turn to "we will make a concerted effort to drive you from office" if things are ignored. And now the AARP has become "the voice" for old folks. That's a large example but you get the drift. It also would feed into "what have you done for me lately" and joining. No panic on action here, just that the wheels should start turning at some point before it's too late. Go team!

[79TransAm]

I wasn't kidding about the lobbyist idea, or the idea of getting better involved with local law enforcement agencies. I think it would benefit us greatly to have someone on the political side of things, as well as having our foot in the door to show the police, around the areas of major problems, that there are actually responsible players out there.


I totally aggree with this, I have been saying this the entire time I have been on this fourm. The MAA has these plans, they have former and current law enforcement guys as officers of the MAA. I know we have some current and former law enforcement and soon to be(me and a few others) so that can be a start. I personally know the former state senator from the eau claire area and I will try to arrange a meeting with him to see what,who,when,and how we could talk to somebody about the interestes of airsoft, or at least how we could get something started.
And as for being a member
I intend to join around the first of the year, just have this crazy tuition thing to pay for. And Aron i hope your right and we see some AEC courses and classes in 07 and I think it would be a good idea to get them spread out through the state and not just the millwaukee/green bay area

[youth in asia]

amen to Texx's last post.

if i could see more initiative to get things done by the WAA, i'd join up and help out.

and why should we start raising awareness "NOW"? --> NOW IS BETTER THAN LATER!



if we dont try to prevent legislation against airsoft, who's going to?

[Defender 1]

I really hope you guys can turn it around, because I'll gladly put my whole team on the WAA if we actually got the patch, card and discount. At this time, there are several WAA members who haven't received even that.

I think the WAA would better serve its members and everyone else a great deal by petitioning ASTM (the people who lay out standards for safety equipment) for them to establish a standard for airsoft goggles. There is currently one under review by them, but it has been there for a long time and is still not resolved. Without an established standard, its hard to get insurance. Its also hard to be safe. If the WAA were more visible on matters such as this, it would make joining worth it. It would show that the WAA leadership is actually concerned about airsoft as a sport, and less concerned about only a specific location (Milwaukee)

Show me improvement, and I'll send you some dough

[A-Ron]

...if i could see more initiative to get things done by the WAA, i'd join up and help out...Problem is though, when initiative is posted and shown, its more often than not greeted with, "Yeah, now what else are you going to do?"


..., and less concerned about only a specific location (Milwaukee)...
Thats news to me. I've never heard of the WAA being "concerned" about Milwaukee.



Right now, my main goal is to get the AEC up and going. I personally would love to be able to get an AEC planned and in the works by springtime.
After that, I'll let ya know what my next goal is, but for now it's one thing at a time.

[79TransAm]

aron would it be possiable perhaps to train some other WAA members to run AEC training so we could get a few courses going on locally, yet they all follow the same rules and guidelines

[seppuku]

aron would it be possiable perhaps to train some other WAA members to run AEC training so we could get a few courses going on locally, yet they all follow the same rules and guidelines
Rest assured, it's in the works....

[Kerrik13]

I never said for the WAA not to do this, I asked why it falls upon "us" as an association. It's funny, to me at least, that its the non-members that are pointing fingers at "us" to get the job done.

Oh but wait.. It's to much to ask for you to join and actually pay isn't it? Sorry, I guess we have to draw the line then.
The members can only do so much with the given forces, and with the lack of manpower, how do you expect we go about it?


I am a paying member of this association (the "us" you refered to) and I say we speak out and do something. The time for sitting idly by has past, in my opinion.

EDIT: I have sat idly watching the WAA for years now and the same thing being said now was said back then. "If you want to change it, then join and become a member." Well, I am a member now. A full fledged paying member of the Wisconsin Airsoft Association; the identity that is supposed to be the promotion and education of airsoft throughout the state. Well, I think it is about time to start acting like it.

The reason why WE (the WAA) need to step up and take on the challenge of tackling this negative image of airsoft is because that is the task we have to do. We cannot call ourselves the Wisconsin Airsoft Association when we are in fact the Wisconsin Sit-Back-Idly-In-Regards-To-Airsoft-And-Let-The-World-Pass-Us-By Association... but we have the power to change that. I am now a member, and I demand change.

[79TransAm]

Rest assured, it's in the works....

That is good to hear

[A-Ron]

...Wisconsin Airsoft Association when we are in fact the Wisconsin Sit-Back-Idly-In-Regards-To-Airsoft-And-Let-The-World-Pass-Us-By Association... but we have the power to change that. I am now a member, and I demand change. So put your foot in your mouth, and make a proposal.
Obviously you signed up not knowing the full "know how" of what you have to do in this kind of circumstance.

You can demand change all you want, but it doesn't mean it's going to do jack squat until its passed by the association.

I did it, I put my foot in my mouth one day and told someone that the organization needs to get the AEC up and running. I believe his response was, "Yeah, but your not a member." I made a few ideas, had him get somethings in the work and propose the idea, and now I'm actually doing it.




Don't say that you demand change, say that your going to make a change.
You seem to me like you want all this stuff to happen, but your not the one wanting to spearhead it.

aron would it be possiable perhaps to train some other WAA members to run AEC training so we could get a few courses going on locally, yet they all follow the same rules and guidelines
As Seppuku said, everything is in the works and moving. The public will be released much intel as possible when the revisions to the work are done, and when a tenative date is out there.

[Kerrik13]

Don't say that you demand change, say that your going to make a change.
You seem to me like you want all this stuff to happen, but your not the one wanting to spearhead it.

A-Ron, you seem to forget the post going on in the members only section, started by me, about proposed changes I came up with to make the WAA better. I blatantly asked what needs to be done (by me, perhaps, or the person behind the expo) to get the WAA in the upcoming expo. I also asked to be given a deadline for the new AEC program so that I can plan on getting it in my hands to train myself and others around the state. I also said I will be more than willing to learn how to become an AEC Certified Trainer for the WAA and to help with it. I'm not sure how that is wanting stuff done and not getting involved.

The truth is that I am going to make a change but it shouldnt be my responsibility (a new member) to tow the weight of an organization thats been together for years. Sure, I will do my part the best I can, but the truth is that the a lot of people see the WAA as inactive and that is why they do not join. If the WAA really makes an effort to do the things it is supposed to be doing, then people will back it and bolster the effort.

[A-Ron]

A-Ron, you seem to forget the post going on in the members only section... No, no I don't. Its just as much of a petty argument as this is.


The truth is that I am going to make a change but it shouldnt be my responsibility (a new member) to tow the weight of an organization thats been together for years...They / we are not asking you do to it. They / we are not asking you to do anything. You want to make a change, but your not willing to get a notion started and keep it going it seems, by that comment at least.

[seppuku]

I just want to reiterate a point about the WAA. We are not elected officials; we are not paid lobbyists. We are volunteers who are paying dues to help better the future of airsoft in Wisconsin. So you can sit on the sidelines and complain that the organization (which is paying for the message boards on which you are complaining) isn't doing anything for you ("you", meaning the airsofting collective in WI), but it doesn't solve anything or add any value.

As for the subject at hand, when things start to really go south (which, sooner or later it will), and legislation to ban airsoft guns starts migrating through Congress, an established organization is going to carry more weight than a few individuals (as Razor pointed out above). Sure, you can start petitions or call your congress-person, but things will be much easier with an existing, unified front, with their foot already in the door.

So if you want to wait for the bandwagon to start moving before you jump on, that's your prerogative. But it's only $35 to join for the whole year - certainly a reasonable fee to be a part of something bigger in Wisconsin Airsoft than just another login name on a message board, or another face at the next game. And believe me, you will see added value for WAA members in the coming year......If you have to "see it, to believe it", again, that's your choice.

[Kerrik13]

You want to make a change, but your not willing to get a notion started and keep it going it seems, by that comment at least.

Quite the contrary, I want to make a difference, see the WAA change for the better, and am willing to see things through. I assure you that I am far more willing to "get a notion started and keep it going" than probably most of the people already in the WAA. I tend to have a bullheaded and optimistic personality :-D It isn't my goals, ideals, and motivations that bother me... its if the WAA is willing to step it up and really be a positive influence on the airsoft community. I really hope we can work together and make the WAA a great organization in the year 2007.

I have a question I would like to throw out to all the non-WAA members... what is it that you would like to see the WAA do this year and what would you like to see the WAA accomplish before you considered membership in the WAA? I think getting people's opinions on what they would like to see is a great start.

[youth in asia]

-more AECs run state-wide

-actively reaching out to LE members throughout the state

-educating the public

[A-Ron]

-more AECs run state-wide

-actively reaching out to LE members throughout the state

-educating the public
As am I am one of the members heading the new advancement in the AEC, I assure you AECs will be held this year.

If I'm not mistaken, the reaching out to law enforcement agencies and members is already in the works, and always has been.

Educating the public takes time, and is always a concern and priority.

[Maus]

I would join if -

1--Board/committe members that have been members since its inception but have done nothing to better airsofts position in wisconsin step down and let someone else do the job. A-ron seems to be a good example of some movement on an important issue to the general airsoft community

2--Board/committee members stop infighting. Come on. You are the faces of the association. How does it look to a mom,dad,politician, LE personal that want to educate themselves come to a public board and see the certain top WAA officals argueing in a open forum, then having the thread locked.

3--Don't poo poo an idea brought up by new blood. Just because you have chaired a committe for a dozen years doesn't automatically make you right. The new guy might have a good idea that should be run with, not buried.

4-- Don't be so secretive about what goes on at WAA meetings. The general airsoft population might want to join up if they see more progress being made on multiple fronts.

5-- Make darn sure that the WAA officers that are dealing with the public, educators, media and LE are not grumpy people in general. Put your best face/foot forward so to speak. Make sure that these are not the same people flaming a new guy in an open forum by answering his/her question with "use the search button". This is the internet. You have no idea if the "new" guy is a parent of someone interested in getting a child into airsoft.

There obviously is a clique mentality to the WAA. Its the same as with any other club I suppose. I was a member of a local chapter of IPMS (International Plastic Modelers Society) for 15 years, and there was the same infighting and bull**** and clique there too. I saw board members and Presidents come and go, but nothing ever changed.

These are MY opinions as a 35 year old airsofter in Wisconsin

[A-Ron]

Good input Maus, thank you.

[Ghostbear]

This topic has been largely skipped by me, as I had assumed that this was talking about the article and not the associations’ part in the state.

But, here we go…

First: Those of you that demand to know what your membership gets you. On the top of that list, is a voice. A voice in what the WAA is and does. NOT the ONLY voice, but A Voice. If enough of you say to do this or that, then the WAA will do this or that. Until then, blaming the Board member for lack of effort is stupid, as has been said a million times before, it is the membership that drives the WAA. The Board passes the proposals given to it on to the Executive Council, they vote if they (and it isn’t some secret society either it is your team reps) pass it, it goes on to the membership and is voted on by YOU. Yes, you the membership. YOU have the last say on Yes/No on the issues. So, while I could want all day for something to happen, if the membership votes it down, then well… Guess what I don’t get what I want to happen.

Second, for $35 what do you expect? The card, the forums, the patch all cost money, and that is taken from the $35 that you put in. Now, you want us to have a lobbyist at the state capitol. Do any of you know what that costs? Being part of the Concealed Carry Association in the state, I can tell you that for that kind of lobbyist it was on the order of $150,000 a year for him to get the PPA to FAIL by one vote. Now, on top of that, you want to keep the local people happy to as they can ban in places like Brookfield, WI. Yes? So, while cheaper to get local officials to ‘help’ on things, it will be $100’s of thousands for that to happen. Ok, Pony it up. I would be happy to arrange lobbyists for airsoft, give me the access to the funds necessary to do so. And don’t you even say that you have some friend or your mom’s second boyfriend knows a lobbyist that would do it for less. If we are going to do this then it will be done right.

But, lets address the membership levels. All you non-members should keep a sock in it. You aren’t helping anything. All your discussion on what you want the WAA to do or be, and then you arent willing to spend $35 to be a member to actually have a part in doing what you DEMAND of us to do. $35 is all it takes to be part of the WAA, which is less than a highcap for most aegs, but you DEMAND that we do the work for you. Why not spend the $35 and do the work yourself?

The comparison to the AARP or the ARRL, is crap as well. In the beginning of BOTH of those organizations, they were right where we were, not enough member to make a difference in big matters. But, they continued to get members and when they had enough then they opened the doors and started to push for things to be done on their memberships benefits. We have some 600+ WI players signed up in these forums (about 850 total), of that we have less than 50 that are members of the WAA. So, what does that say? Isnt that enough people to say that we ARE reaching the public? What is the number that it would take to say we are successful on the reaching the public part? or is it reaching the soccer moms? Most of the email that I respond to is people that just found the site and are asking questions on what they should be doing to get into the game. I even answered an email from a Mom that was asking on behalf of her child what should he be doing to get involved in the game of airsoft and how she could help. Why not tell you about it? Because would you want your name plastered around as an icon to the game even if your child hasnt even played a game yet?

Is it that we don’t offer enough to make you a member? Then what do you want us to do? Pay you for becoming a member? Give you $40 in stuff for the $35 you pay? No, most of you will chime back with ‘No, all we want is…’

But, what you want, things like:

Defender1 : “Show me improvement, and I’ll send you some dough.”

Improvement in what? Oh, yes, we should petition the ASTM for them to establish the standards for airsoft goggles. What if we don’t want to play in goggles? What if we like Glasses? But, yes, we can sign a petition and send it in, when they ask (if they take the time to respond) how many people is the WAA talking for? Umm, 50.

Or Youth in Asia: “If I could see more initiative to get things done by the WAA, I’d join up and help out.”

Then join up and spearhead one of the things that you want the WAA to do. If we don’t get things done in the year, you are out $35. If you help out and we DO the thing you want, then we did EXACTLY what you wanted for the $35. Even if we are having problems with the membership cards and patches. Wouldn’t we still have shown initiative, with your help?

Or Youths other comment: “actively reach out to LE members throughout the state.”

And another idea that is very bad. Ok, we don’t know who is who in the LE community. Do you have any idea that there are LE people that would like to see the whole of airsoft be banned? Just because we reach out to them they don’t have to like us. People that are already LE that play are our best inroads into the LE communities. THEY know WAY MORE about the people that you are talking about, then you will EVER know. And they know who to and who NOT to talk to about it. And they do. Look at the LE guys that are playing now, more and more of them are coming out and picking up an AEG. Until we have a large enough following INSIDE the LE community, we CANT just knock on the door and say “here we are, now like us because we like you.” I talked with and did a show and tell for a few PD’s in the state now, and they all have been very happy to hear about the WAA and what we do, but it hasn’t been like we get members from the meeting, nor do we get a free pass from those PD’s either.

Or Maus: “Board/Committee members that have been members since it’s inception but have done nothing to better airsofts position in wisconsin step down and…”

Well, you would have to dump the whole membership on that one. As the membership is the one that voted for or not the proposals that have been made, and they are the ones that are whom are tasked with the jobs assigned from such a proposal being passed.

Or Maus’: “Don’t poo poo an idea…”

We don’t, but we also expect that the proposal will be done as described in the bylaws. No idea has been poo poo’d but it also doenst mean that just because someone has an idea doesn’t make it a good one either. If I give grief to someone for an idea, I expect that they will defend that idea. They will answer the questions or have an answer to the remarks I made toward the idea. IF they cannot overcome the discussion that I have presented, then they don’t have an idea that even they believe in and why should we be tasked with completing and implementing an idea that they cant even fully comprehend the possibilities it could bring to the table, good or bad.

Or Maus’: “Don’t be so secretive about what goes on at WAA meetings.”

If IBM were to have a board meeting, do you think you could just walk into it? Even if you were a shareholder of the company? NOPE. You cant. Do you expect that you can walk into the company meeting for your local Kwik-Trip? Nope. Do you expect to get notification when your local airsoft vendor is determining pricing for the stock, so you can see what he is doing? Not in your lifetime. But, you spend MORE money with them than you ever would spend with the WAA. But, you don’t expect to be part of those decisions. And neither should you be expected to be part of the decisions of an organization that you have no interest in. Because if you had an interest in it, you would have joined and would have been invited to it in the first place.

You could also extend this into associations as well. IF you aren’t a member you cant attend annual meetings for the SCCA, or any other association that has in their bylaws that the annual meeting is for members only.

And for all of you that believe that we have some magical powers to influence decisions of local officials then I applaud you. Because we don’t. Let’s take a look at my little area of the woods; Menomonee Falls.

If I were to hear that MF would be banning airsoft (I haven’t but for discussion) and told them that the WAA would like to work with you on forming a law that would be strong enough for you to handle the problem and still keep our sport alive, they might respond well. Until they asked how many of the membership is based in MF. Because politicians only care for what helps them, the answer now would be 1.

Do you think that they would care about the wishes of 1 person when they hear the banter and complaints from 100’s of soccer moms that want the guns banned outright? If every airsoft player in MF would join up, then that number would be 100 or more. If that were the case, then they would be more likely to say ok and work to solve the problem we all agree is there. Same thing in any area.

Let me give it to you in another way. There are 846 members listed on the boards as registered members. Take out the out of state and the Non-Entity members that leaves close to 600. Of those 600 in state registered members, the WAA has less than 50 paid members.

But, I will put is further as this. I am honestly sick of hearing about the card, the patch and the forums. You want to talk about us reaching out to the public to offer them information on airsoft and the sport, how many did we touch with the forums? How many? And don’t give me the crap about those that got flamed and didn’t come back. How many did and still do come back to read about airsoft?

Yes, we have our problems, nobody has ever said we don’t.
<continued>

[Ghostbear]

But, we aren’t a strong enough player to cause people to sit up and take notice yet. And until we are, we CANT try to push agendas. Because, if you spend what little ‘influence’ we have now, and cant deliver when we are asked to. Then later we are nothing but a non-entity to the people that we will want to talk to then.

This is not to say ‘do nothing’ either. We just have to be selective in what we do get involved in. And make damn sure that it makes the WAA and airsoft look better in the eyes of most EVERYONE and not just the members and players. Sadly a good example is the expo that Kerrik brought up. If the expo is well received then the WAA could gain some good press. If the expo goes bad or worse someone gets hurt the WAA will take a hit even if they didn’t set the safety standards for the expo. So, it is a balancing act on what to and what not to and to what extend we do get involved with things. The problem is that I can see both the good and the bad in things. And while I hope for the best, I have to plan for the worst. And if the balance between the good and the bad pushes the scales to more bad then good, I have to make the arguments to let people see the bad.

This is not just the expo, it can be any of the ideas that have been presented here.

Just how far do you want to have the WAA be involved in safety standards, we can say day in and day out how the WAA is based in safety, but when fields chose not to follow the WAA ruleset and in turn follow their own that omit specific items like age restrictions or FPS limits or surrender rules or minimum engagement distances then how can you make that determination once something bad happened.

Lets make a hypothetical situation: The WAA has made the push to the public that the rules and safety that the WAA has implemented will provide a reasonable level of safety for the players that are involved with WAA games. And the public is ok with this and has accepted it.

Now, Little Billy (a 17 year old noob) has attended a game, and is in the field, playing his little heart out, and having a blast. Everyone is good, when Billy has a fogging problem with his goggles. Ending up with a bb that hits Billy in the eye and his eye gets damaged.

The mother of the teen then decides that they are going to take it to the press when the field owner shows her the signed release waiver, which she herself signed, allowing him to play.

The press takes this and runs with it. Showcasing other injuries across the country and puts airsoft in the bad light. But, the WAA rules state that you are not to remove your goggles in the field under any circumstances. How does one make that differentiation without sounding like your passing the buck?

There are reasons to keep a low profile and still do things to keep airsoft viable in the state. Not everything that we do SHOULD be open knowledge. Because if the gun haters knew of this or that, they could start campaigns against what we are doing. And they have the numbers we don’t.

Good example would be the concealed carry in the state, there were things that the lobbyist was doing that weren’t public knowledge until they were required by law to report. The reason, is that if you can get the support and not have to tell everyone until you have it, then you cant get stopped cold by someone on the other end of the scale ramping up against you.

But, all this is academic, because until you are willing to put your backing behind the WAA then you likely wont find anyone that is going to be pushing for what you want. As everyone has a different take on what the WAA is or should be doing for them. Because in the end it is always for you to get what you want. We can all see that in what you posted as your reasons to wait until you get involved.

Something to also consider…

If we accomplish the reasons that have been stated for you not joining, what will your new reasons be for not joining then?

[DKruse]

My number one reason for not joining is... debts :D haha.

First of February latest I should be a member though.

[Ghostbear]

SEE Now I like that one, I can relate to that. :D

[Defender 1]

But, what you want, things like:

Defender1 : “Show me improvement, and I’ll send you some dough.”

Improvement in what? Oh, yes, we should petition the ASTM for them to establish the standards for airsoft goggles. What if we don’t want to play in goggles? What if we like Glasses? But, yes, we can sign a petition and send it in, when they ask (if they take the time to respond) how many people is the WAA talking for? Umm, 50.

<continued>

Field owners need insurance, insurance companies won't insure "glasses" even if they are unlikely to break. The best I can get is paintball insurance, which requires the use of paintball goggles. If there was an airsoft standard, you may be able to wear safety glasses or mesh. Since there is none, airsoft is being held back. The improvement I am looking for is in attitude, and in focus. it shouldn't be "members vs. non members" not everyone can afford $35, but that doesn't mean they don't support airsoft. The WAA should be selfless in the pursuit of safe legal airsoft. I already bug ASTM constantly, as does the California chapter of my team. We do this for nothing more than the privledge to allow people to wear safety gear that is not overkill without the threat of being sued. I just want a little help. Bickering, In-fighting and "elitism" do not make me confident that the association is focused on making airsoft a more prosperous sport. Show me some help, and I won't have a reason not to join.

[Maple]

Just a question, as I don't feel the need to join this silly debate.
What is the "elitism in the WAA" that everybody is talking about? Seeing as very few WAA members post on the forums, how are they coming off as elitist's?
Other than that question, please feel free to go on with this silly little WAA bash. It is making for entertaining reading. [:Y:]



-edit-
Also, (I am not trying to be a d!ck about this either, but it relates to what I do for a living) paintball insurance does not cover airsoft games. Without going into a bunch of insurance mumbo jumbo, holding an airsoft game under the coverage of paintball insurance could lead to many different problems. The biggest of all is that if there is an insurable injury or claim, it would not be covered as paintball insurance is meant for just for paintball. This would lead to an uninsured claim which could cost you (I assume a business, field or homeowner) a lot more than you would expect and could potentially harm you income or property ownership for many years to come.
Like I said, not trying to be an ass, just wanted to mention it so you can potentially avoid a nasty lawsuit (or worse, an arrest for insurance fraud) over what essentially is a hobby rather than a sport.

[TomE]

Brad Like I said in my PM, My money's on its way... I can't wait to work with the membership on a few things.

[Ghostbear]

TomE, I look forward to your help in the association. And I appreciate you stepping up to the plate. I know that there are many items in the works or on the horizon that could benefit from your experience and expertise.

[Ghostbear]

Thanks for bringing up the ASTM.

Are you a member of that group? Is your teams CA chapter members? Because you know for $75 a year you can be. You could be ON the exact committee you are talking about. But, I bet someone is going to say that the WAA should be and you still wont put $75 into the pot for you to have a direct say in the ASTM committee that you are talking about.

Yup, take a look at the www.astm.org on the left column click membership then click on the 'why join the ASTM' link. Or the membership types and you can see that for $75 you can be a participating member of the ASTM. Whom better to push the standard than someone IN the ASTM. So, join then push the committee from the inside to get it done.

But, that would be much like the WAA comments of the past, and this is not directed at Defender, but it is the same exact thing. Stay on the outside and bitch that your project isnt being done. But, don’t lift a finger to help get it done. Just complain and eventually someone else will step up and do your job for you. And even then you will still find a reason not to become a member, because it wasn’t done fast enough or wasn’t exactly what you wanted so it wasn’t done right for you.

Here is an example of the ASTM not working fast enough to solidify a standard for airsoft protective eyewear. But, you do know that the insurance companies already are ok with the whole ANSI z87.1 standard for ballistic eyewear. It is not the eyes that are the problem with players, but the full face. And the ASTM standard doesn’t even address that. So, while it would be fine to have the ASTM standard it isnt going to make insurance instantly available to anyone. But, that would come from reading the standard that the ASTM is advancing. So, here it is:



Copyright 2006 ASTM International. All rights reserved.

WK990 New Standard Specification for Eye Protective Devices for AIRSOFT Sports
Developed by Subcommittee: F08.57
See Related Work by this Subcommittee
Date Initiated: 05-12-2003

1. Scope

1.1 This specification applies to eye protective devices designed for use by players of the sport of AIRSOFT that minimize or significantly reduce injury to the eye and adnexa as a result of impact and penetration of plastic pellets.
1.2 Eye protective devices meeting the requirements of this specification offer protection to the eyes and adnexa and not necessarily to any other parts of the head.
1.3 This standard does not purport to address all of the safety concerns, if any, associated with its use. It is the responsibility of the user of this standard to establish appropriate safety and health practices and determine the applicability of regulatory limitations prior to use.
1.4 This specification does not limit the wearing of eyeglasses or contact lenses when used in conjunction with the eye protective devices. Required by individuals, companies, and the government for guidance. Reduce injuries by allowing the companies to develop specialized products. Allow field owners to meet minimum safety standards when purchasing equipment.


The specific item of interest is section 1.2, the 'and not necessarily to any other parts of the head.' comment that means it is limited scope to only the eyes and their orbits. Not the teeth or the ears or the face, all of which the insurance companies are wanting to have a standard for as well. but since the ASTM started this committee in May 2003 and still dont have a standard for eyewear, then it will likely be 2030 before anything for the full face is addressed. But, hey you could join and start a standard right now if you felt that this was important enough.

[Kerrik13]

Ghostbear,

First of all, let me commend you on the sheer volume of information you poured out in your message a few posts above this one.

I think one the problems that people had (me as well) is that we did not understand all that goes on from your end. To a new player who might join the WAA who wants change, when change does not happen and not much communicating is happening then it is obvious people will get frustrated.

Your post answered a lot of questions I had and gave me a better understanding of how some things work. I hope to use that in helping the WAA see some positive things through :)

[Ghostbear]

Kerrik,

I would love to have the time in my life to pour out the important parts of what I know is happening or going to be happening or just what I know about things that are related to airsoft in the state and otherwise. But, this nearly same converstation happened less than 2 years ago with an influx of people wanting to bash the WAA. And again about 5 years ago under similar circumstances.

It all came down in both those circumstances that the WAA was bad and in all I tried to explain the workings of the association, but it all fell on dead ears at that time.

This time it looks like I might have gotten through to at least one of the people. And that is a start, but it is exhausting for me to have to write such a long post and to make sure what I am saying is correct. I hope that this time I got through to more than just one of you, but one is better than the last two times when my information might just have been me repeating "the indians are coming"...

[Kerrik13]

Ghostbear,

As an airsoft player who was very concerned with the WAA not doing anything just because they were lazy, your post set some of my concerns at ease. Although there will always be people willing to bash, some do have to intent that the words they say will be met with guidance or possible solutions. That is why I posted what I thought was wrong and I believe I have learned more in the last week than I have in three years. I do know that some people will not be satisfied until they see results, but open discussion of what is going on will help bring out the players who are willing to help get them (results).

PS- I read over my post and the first sentence seemed like an outright bash... I assure you it was not meant to be. I was merely stating it from my opinion that I used to view the WAA as a lazy bunch, but when more information was presented to me it helped me put things into perspective.

[Ghostbear]

Kerrik,

If there is one thing that I have learned while visiting forums, airsoft or otherwise, is that words can and are often taken out of context and as such I have grown a very thick skin.

[Defender 1]

GB,


We are on that committee. So are insurance companies, and so are people who are anti airsoft. I've even contacted eyewear manufacturers and encouraged them to join, as it will be money in their pocket when it is developed. Some have joined, some brush me off.. If I'm not mistaken, Oakley and JT are now on the committee.

I do appreciate the fact that you are knowledgable on WK990, and I respectfully ask that you investigate the possibility of some involvement in committee F08. If there are any college students in a safety or engineering program, you can join the committee for free.
I just don't want to be mistaken for someone who's all complaint and no solution.

[Ghostbear]

That is great that you are on that committee. I know that anti people get just, or possibly more, involved then the people that are wanting this to happen. It is great to hear you are on the committee. That is important.

Please keep us up on anything that is resolved with this standard, while it is part of the overall package, it is an important part.

[Texx]

Something to also consider…

If we accomplish the reasons that have been stated for you not joining, what will your new reasons be for not joining then?

Some things for you to consider, as well...

If you get a boost in membership, what reason will you have for the WAA not accomplishing its founding mission? Will the WAA work to promote airsoft in ALL of Wisconsin, or expect the neighboring states to pick up in its place?

It comes down to faith. We put our faith into an Association to represent the ideas of its members and to stand up for the Principles in which the Association is founded. If the Association can't or won't do that, you have to expect people to lose faith in it.

From the Non-Member side, what is the motivation for joining an organization that outwardly appears to be going nowhere and doing nothing? Basically, everyone is buying into a promise until they see the fruits of their effort. You expect nothing less from anything else you spend money on.

And no, $35 is not much. But when you compare it to $35 spent on a High Cap, you are comparing that to money spent on something useful, tangible and which is obviously intended for use in Airsoft. If you want more people to believe in the WAA, you have to make the WAA the useful, tangible entity that it was intended to be.

And no, those aren't demands. You are free to ignore a good portion of people interested in joining. And you can even blame the lack of numbers as being the reason why the WAA can't do anything. But whose fault is it for turning away the non-members? They're already to blame for the WAA not doing anything. You want to turn around and blame them again?

{Disclaimer: I do not actually have an opinion. Even if I did, it is timid and humble and would never even think of trying to harm single a living creature.}

[Defender 1]

That is great that you are on that committee. I know that anti people get just, or possibly more, involved then the people that are wanting this to happen. It is great to hear you are on the committee. That is important.

Please keep us up on anything that is resolved with this standard, while it is part of the overall package, it is an important part.


Hooyah GB..

[A-Ron]

...If you get a boost in membership, what reason will you have for the WAA not accomplishing its founding mission? Will the WAA work to promote airsoft in ALL of Wisconsin, or expect the neighboring states to pick up in its place?

It comes down to faith. We put our faith into an Association to represent the ideas of its members and to stand up for the Principles in which the Association is founded. If the Association can't or won't do that, you have to expect people to lose faith in it...
What reason will we have? Assuming that nothing new happens, or changes don't happen, theres two good ones I can think of off the top of my head.
-Lack of support due to people not taking initiative
-Proposals being denied / voted down
Thats just two things that can happen more likely than not.

What happens though if you (non-members) all join and the WAA solidifies? But before you do join, the WAA knocks all of your ideas out of the pond, and accomplishes a lot? Will you (non-members) join then after everything has been accomplished and say that you (non-members) helped as it was going on?

Not like it matters even, because it will be promoting a cause, just wondering.

I don't look at it like that, I'm just stating what could happen. I'm optimistic and pessimistic at the same time.

[raven]

I like what is being said in these posts. We need to take action soon otherwise it may be too late. Its HIGHLY unlikely that we can completly rid ourselves of this problem. There will always be a few idiots playing in their front yard or pretending to be "Gangster" but i believe that if we can do some of these things that have been said in this forum everything will settle in our favor.

[Sharpshooter]

I dont know if this has been suggested yet...hard to read 1 million posts in 10 minutes...but how about if we take videos of our games and show people how we work. We can release these videos and show people airsoft is just as safe as other sports. This might also be a good way to recruit people. Just a suggestion :)