standard velocity rules for QCB

[A-Ron]

Most places it is 350 fps, chronographed off of .2g bbs.
Which is 311.86 fps using .25 g bbs.

[DKruse]

I was talking to jason today... he said it will likely be $25 per person.

[Maple]

Most places it is 350 fps, chronographed off of .2g bbs.
Which is 311.86 fps using .25 g bbs.

*Chair-Softer Alert!!!!!*

Actually, most places I have been to and seen posted, it is 320fps w/ .20's.

[79TransAm]

*Chair-Softer Alert!!!!!*

Actually, most places I have been to and seen posted, it is 320fps w/ .20's.


I know the MAA is 350 with .2's so thats kinda what were going off of

[A-Ron]

Most other states utilize the 350 rule as well, or so I've seen and noted.

[Maple]

Good luck with 350fps shots at point blank range.
320fps at a few feet stings like hell and can draw blood, I can just imagine what 350fps will do.

[A-Ron]

No, I know.. But other states don't seem to have a problem with it. Other states also require, and enforce, you to have full face protection and / or full seal goggles with a balacava.

Asylum V, is a mandatory semi-auto only, 350 fps, full face proctection game.
And I have just the gun for them, lol. That game is going to be fun.

[Maple]

It's nice to see that we can have a sense of consistency in the WI airsoft rule set. (In case somebody doesn't get it, I am being sarcastic)

With fields using whatever rules they find to be "okay" players have almost no way of knowing what they are getting themselves into.

Some fields use the WAA ruleset, others use the MAA. Some use neither, others make up their own.
And folks wonder why the public WI airsoft scene has major problems and is going down a road called dangerous.
But what do I know, I haven't been playing very long or anything.......

-mat

Feel free to flame me now!

[A-Ron]

FLAME FLAME FLAME FLAME FLAME

:fryingpan :dizzy:

We're all listenting to you, or reading I should say. Others just keep to themselves about it.

[DKruse]

Jason had said only 24 were allowed, but one doesn't make much of a difference.

In my opinion, 350 wouldn't be too harsh, Justin at ASJ has his CQB events at 350 w/ .2g and I didn't mind it. Might I suggest semi-auto only though. The only case of injury was when a S.R.T. member was in full-auto and shot a person in the head(full auto.. roughly three rounds... point blank). But otherwise it didn't seem to hurt too bad. But I'll probably end up using one of the three pistols that I own if i go(which I hope to).

PS Civilians=ungodly sweet idea.

Even though I tend to agree with you maple, it is technically their field, so they choose the rules. But many of the newer fields I've been to(aka paintball fields trying out airsoft) have gone very strict safety(full face, under 500, etc.) for starters, and discuss a lot with experience airsoft players. One of my team mates has been to many meetings with the ownership at CPX(Codename: I/II/III, and open games). And has helped set new guidelines and the old ones to protect players, including not allowing snipers in Bedlam(a 4 block city). But that was somewhat off-topic hehe.

[Maple]

Even though I tend to agree with you maple, it is technically their field, so they choose the rules.

I agree completely. Just saying that it is actually hindering airsoft in WI when no two fields use the same rule set.

Safety is one thing (nothing wrong with err-ing on the side of caution and requring "extra" safety measures), but FPS limits, age limits, engagement distances, etc is not normalized and makes it difficult for players to know what they are getting themselves into.

But you are right, it is the field owners perogative as to what they do, so I guess my breathe (or typing) is just a waste of space.

[Beest]

So that's full auto game with a 350 fps limit.. Holy chit dude. Well you guys have fun with that. I think that the combination of....high FPS...full auto....and (from what I've seen as the majority) (to borrow this phrase) kids who can't Identify their parents in a lineup. It has the makeings for alot of problems. But what does anyone else know right. It's not like there is/was another CQB place out there that has established rules and a **** load more experience. But they probably don't care to speakup. Seeing as how all of wisconsin wants to use different rules. And when they do speak from experience they all become asshats. There was many a day left bloody at 320fps and semi auto only. But you're right...their field their rules. Not that newcommmer to the sport couldn't be pursuaded(sp) to adhear to a rule set that has already been writen under testing conditions.

[DKruse]

So that's full auto game with a 350 fps limit.. Holy chit dude. Well you guys have fun with that. I think that the combination of....high FPS...full auto....and (from what I've seen as the majority) (to borrow this phrase) kids who can't Identify their parents in a lineup. It has the makeings for alot of problems. But what does anyone else know right. It's not like there is/was another CQB place out there that has established rules and a **** load more experience. But they probably don't care to speakup. Seeing as how all of wisconsin wants to use different rules. And when they do speak from experience they all become asshats. There was many a day left bloody at 320fps and semi auto only. But you're right...their field their rules. Not that newcommmer to the sport couldn't be pursuaded(sp) to adhear to a rule set that has already been writen under testing conditions.


First, I will mention how K9Troop just said that Thunder Alley allows both full-auto and 350fps? (he said it was a "free for all" and the website doesn't say anything about FPS limits... so ? on that.

Also Summit Lake Films/Agressive Sports Juliet also allows 350fps (semi-auto only). And they have 40 some people play each year, with police department and city approval needed yearly.

So if 350fps was really so bad, then how come I've heard of only one field actually requiring only 320fps? And it's not like nobody knows that people may have guns shooting 350fps, it's not a mandatory game :) So, as you've stated, you won't go because of the 350fps limit. Others might feel the same way.

Oh, and I take complete offense to the kids comment. First off, a friend of mine, with no airsoft experience, played in a night game at apoc and used the bang rule more affectively than almost any of the other 8 players there. If he can, then what's stopping every other person? As well, at the last Asylum game I went to.. a Forest Park SRT member put his CA MP5 in full auto and shot a person point blank in the head, three BBs. We later overheard him say something like "I didn't know these shot full auto". So not only little kids could do those kinds of things. But thanks for stating your opinion anyway, and sorry if you see this as flaming you, I didn't exactly mean it that way (except for this last part I guess... but the rest was just meant to be constructive... as was this last paragraph, but I mighta gone a bit overboard. I'll read it later and edit it if it seems overboard to me then.)

On with the game.

[Beest]

The biggest thing that peaves me is the lack of unison in WI,not just this game but all over. There were rules developed through years of...hey,that doesn't but this is better. Trial and error.

""""""Oh, and I take complete offense to the kids comment. First off, a friend of mine, with no airsoft experience, played in a night game at apoc and used the bang rule more affectively than almost any of the other 8 players there. If he can, then what's stopping every other person?""""""""

^^^Then that doesn't apply does it. If it did apply then you should have taken offence.

"""""""""As well, at the last Asylum game I went to.. a Forest Park SRT member put his CA MP5 in full auto and shot a person point blank in the head, three BBs. We later overheard him say something like "I didn't know these shot full auto"."""""""

Sounds to me like he had control.....like you said 3 bbs and then stop. Sure it was bad judgement to shoot that close. I guess that makes him an ass hole then. The kids I refer to that takes away your squishy warm inside feallings are the ones that don't stop even when you're waving a kill rag in the open. Or my personal fav...When you lead an opening with the rag in hand followed by body mass and they shoot you anyway. I refer to that children...(And I guess this does apply to some adults) that have no control. That crap happens outside. Anytime I have had similar problems they have not been with the adults that have been at games. What happens when that crap happens inside? At those ranges the situation can go drastically down hill fast.


(Warning...broad sweeping generalization>>>>>>)Generally speaking...the people that are gonna drop that kinda coin on a game and are gonna make the trip outa state are not the ones that are idiots. So just because a "big game" has these rules doesn't mean they are good for local games.

Don't edit on my account......

[DKruse]

For clarification, the Officer did a full auto 3-round burst during a semi-auto only game(SLF/ASJ require semi-auto only).

But thank you for the clarification to what you meant by kids being a possible problem. But once again, I've seen more adults do this than kids. But I know exactly what you mean about the safety issue. But it's each persons responsibility to take account for that. Full-face protection helps with possible injuries a little bit.

So in the end, we agree with things should be ran safely :)

[Texx]

So that's full auto game with a 350 fps limit.. Holy chit dude. Well you guys have fun with that. I think that the combination of....high FPS...full auto....and (from what I've seen as the majority) (to borrow this phrase) kids who can't Identify their parents in a lineup. It has the makeings for alot of problems. But what does anyone else know right. It's not like there is/was another CQB place out there that has established rules and a **** load more experience. But they probably don't care to speakup. Seeing as how all of wisconsin wants to use different rules. And when they do speak from experience they all become asshats. There was many a day left bloody at 320fps and semi auto only. But you're right...their field their rules. Not that newcommmer to the sport couldn't be pursuaded(sp) to adhear to a rule set that has already been writen under testing conditions.

You make some good points. And while it would be nice to have more places adopt a common set of rules, I would also like to point out that when one of the event organizers joined the community and offered a discount to fellow members, he was not even given a welcome or barely any acknowledgement he had even joined.

And perhaps people would adhere to community rules if they were actually welcomed into the community rather than ignored and then criticized for not asking for advice from people who'd just assume ignore them.

[Beest]

I gues sthat becomes our fault for not rolling out the red carpet and sucking their toes. What...does everyone need their ego stroked to be here and try to follow a standard set of rules? I'm sorry...but not haveing a cup of coffe and a few danishes waiting to me are not valid arguments for not trying to ad to the uniformity that is trying to be accomplished by the WAA.

[Maple]

You make some good points. And while it would be nice to have more places adopt a common set of rules, I would also like to point out that when one of the event organizers joined the community and offered a discount to fellow members, he was not even given a welcome or barely any acknowledgement he had even joined.

And perhaps people would adhere to community rules if they were actually welcomed into the community rather than ignored and then criticized for not asking for advice from people who'd just assume ignore them.

I can't speak for the rest of the WAA officers, or the membership at that, but I have never once ignored anybody (member or not) who has contacted me in regards to the WAA. I find it hard to believe that GB or Crow would either.

But then again, since you are now a big fish in a small community, you some how feel that it is okay to come onto the WAA's boards and bash the Org?!?

Or maybe you think we should gently rub your back and tell you what a great guy you are?

Since it appears that the WAA is such a bad group, why do you bother posting on our boards?

Once again, I am glad I am getting out of airsoft. Sadly a bunch of arm chair Nancy's have made what should be fun into some kind of "who's **** is bigger" game.

Lastly, thanks Texx for the years of informative BS on how "we" suck if "we" don't believe what Texx believes. Oh yeah, and it must feel nice to crown yourself the King of N.W. WI airsoft.




On that note, I am done. No more words from Maple on the WAA forums. Thanks to all of you who have helped make WI suck ass. Pat yourselves on the back, you earned it.

-sincerely-
mat

[Gryphon]

This is Todd Meyer, the Event Organizer for the Nostromo games and author of the rules of play for those games and the upcoming CQB game in Osseo on January 14. While I am not a WAA member and did not seek WAA sanction for our events, I did consult the WAA Charter & Rules when composing the Nostromo rules and tried to adhere to them as closely as possible while still meeting the field owner's concerns/specifications. I added to the rules where necessary for the scenarios (the WAA has no rules regarding grenades, vehicles, armor, or heavy weapons, for example, all of which are staples of the paintball scenarios I've run in the past.)

I am a little surprised and puzzled by the tone of this discussion, considering that the ostensible goal of the WAA officials is to UNITE Wisconsin airsoft players, not to trigger quibble-fests and flame wars. My experience has been that accomodation and consideration are often better strategies for creating unity than generalized criticism. I would welcome an official, rule-by-rule WAA critique of the rules set under which I operate our mid-Wisconsin scenario games. My rules aren't set in stone - they are simply my best effort at the moment. I have searched the WAA rules and cannot find a single rule pertaining to what the WAA considers appropriate FPS limits for indoor CQB games. Please forgive me if I overlooked it, and direct me to the appropriate WAA rule if I have. I'm open to suggestions.

I also have to say respectfully I disagree with the statement that Wisconsin airsoft sucks. I have been consistently impressed by the quality and general good sportsmanship our the players who have shown up for our games.

[armsdealer]

Just some thoughts...
If we are so great at following the procedures in this association then I would like to know Just where is my...
(With your $35/year membership, you will get a nifty laminated membership card and an embroidered WAA patch. Among the additional benefits are likely to be included in the future are discounts at certain airsoft retailers and reduced admission prices for WAA games.)

I never got that and I paid for my membership. Some one it seems can't even organize a nice "thank you for joining, reciept when a member pays to join the WAA". I offered a discount for any WAA member in my store however I do need to be able to identify the WAA members in my store so perhaps some of the 35 dollar membership fee that is collected could possibly go to the making of a simple membership card that actually gets mailed to members then they might feel as if they belong to something. Article II of the Wisconsin Airsoft Association objectives #9 states "To recruit and retain members and to manage the association in a manner that will effectively represent the views of its members" First I am a Member. 2nd I did pay to join the WAA and I do own a Wisconsin Airsoft store. So correct me if I am wrong but ASSOCIATION OBJECTIVE #2 says WAA will effectively communicate with members including airsoft retailers to provide a liason between these entities. Despite this I have never been contacted once by any officer of The WAA even though we have kept all members informed of upcoming events not one WAA contact, Event Poster, or any other positive move to show that the WAA gives a rats ass about improving or expanding airsoft in Wisconsin. So I am not asking for any toe sucking from anyone however we will keep hosting events here in north western Wisconsin and we thank those of you who are and have attended our events and encourage your suggestions and critiques. By the way no one said full auto was allowed indoors but thanks for the speculation.

[seppuku]

I have searched the WAA rules and cannot find a single rule pertaining to what the WAA considers appropriate FPS limits for indoor CQB games. Please forgive me if I overlooked it, and direct me to the appropriate WAA rule if I have. I'm open to suggestions.
I believe you are correct. The only provision the WAA has regarding CQB is that players must wear full face protection. (People can find the official docs HERE (http://wiairsoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=386)).

Personally I think it's great to see new fields opening their "doors" to airsoft; and even though I probably won't be able to make that many of these events (it's a bit of a drive), I hope to see more games up in that neck of the woods.

[Beest]

I guess I owe an appology. All these years doing CQB I thought the rules we used were from thw WAA stuff.

My thoughts on the 350 limit still stand stand. As far as full auto. I saw it in a post....must have been in regards to a different feild though.

There comes a time when you need to take it upon your self to get the things you paid for. The WAA is made up of volunteers and as such it is not there life. I'm sure you can forgive them for not sending you stuff right away.

[Gryphon]

Can anyone point me towards a CQB rules set that the WAA leadership would like to see adopted as the Wisconsin standard model, if such a set doesn't exist on the WAA website?

[Maple]

I guess help has never been offered (http://wiairsoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2860&page=2&pp=20&highlight=Claire)

And fret not, I am stepping down from the WAA at the next meeting. (Early 2007)
With any luck, so will a few other people and we can all watch the WAA go goodbye. And the forums go with it.

Nobody ever said we (officers) had to play nice, if people want to call us out, then some of us won't lie down taking it in the ass.
And little do you know about Texx's past on these forums. If you think I can be an asshole, you should see some of the stuff he has pulled in the past.

And I may not have done much for airsoft, besides formerly owning a store that sold airsoft guns and supplying a good number of people with aeg's when they were hard to come by, and also supplying land for games to some folks, or supporting several fields in my area.........


But I have done it again, speaking up after i said I wouldn't. So now I really, really will try to keep my mouth shut.

Good luck with your fields and CQB. I still don't suggest going 350fps on full auto, but that is just me.

[Beest]

I personally don't feel that it is unreasonable to send an email asking where your stuff is. Or even if they got payment. But whatever....your attitude screams that everyone should please you.

If you payed for a magazine and didn't get it you'd be calling....not just sitting at your desk bitching about it.

"""""P.S I have played at thunder alley and there was no problems with the 350fps on full auto. """

^^^ Well I guess that gets you a cookie. O my god...yours balls must be huge!!! There...your ego has been stroked..........

[majwinters636]

wow i just think everyone has to sit down and relax :wide-eyed.

this thread is for an indoor game in osseo.

[Beest]

See...you didn't get your whopper....so you made your own. Point is you did something about it.

[Gryphon]

Meanwhile, back at the TOPIC, again I ask on the official WAA forum:

Can anyone point me towards a CQB rules set that the WAA leadership would like to see adopted as the Wisconsin standard model, if such a set doesn't exist on the WAA website?

[DKruse]

Meanwhile, back at the TOPIC, again I ask on the official WAA forum:

Can anyone point me towards a CQB rules set that the WAA leadership would like to see adopted as the Wisconsin standard model, if such a set doesn't exist on the WAA website?



II.
L. For all Indoor Close Quarters Battle games (I-CQB) players are required to wear a
full-face mask and protective gloves while skirmishing. Players over the age of 18
may opt to wear Balaclava face covers instead of facemasks.


That is the only rule I found posted officially by the WAA for CQB events.

[Texx]

I gues sthat becomes our fault for not rolling out the red carpet and sucking their toes. What...does everyone need their ego stroked to be here and try to follow a standard set of rules? I'm sorry...but not haveing a cup of coffe and a few danishes waiting to me are not valid arguments for not trying to ad to the uniformity that is trying to be accomplished by the WAA.

It has nothing to do with that, Beest. If you want people to value an adopted standard, you have to do what is necessary to get them to recognize that value. You can't just sit on your ass and claim a pile of dog **** is pumpkin pie and have everyone believe just because you have slapped an association seal of approval on it.

In this case, "doing what is necessary" is getting past the fact there are so many new "asshats" coming out of the woodwork to play and showing them some actual leadership. I continually see complaints about the new kids who cheat and don't follow safety rules and go out and do stupid things. Its going to happen with absense of good leadership.

How do you make them fall into line? You show them that you are concerned, make them feel like they are part of the community and you work with them to make them better airsofters. Instill in them the sense of community and the need to preserve the sport.

And nothing against the WAA, many members I have met are fine upstanding guys that I would be honored to play with at any game. But hiding from the problems are not going to make them go away. Show me some actual leadership and a community standard that I can believe in and I would follow them to hell.

[youth in asia]

"With any luck, so will a few other people and we can all watch the WAA go goodbye. And the forums go with it."

this quote kind of bugs me. fine, you can be fed up with how you think people are acting in WI. Sure, some of them ARE assholes, but hoping that this organization is going to collapse? hoping that the forums, which many "innocent" people use to buy/sell things and to post info about games, i dont know how you got on in the WAA in the first place! shouldnt you be trying to IMPROVE what you see as wrong instead of hoping for its destruction? isnt it your RESPONSIBILITY???

but if quitting with a malicious overtone is how you want to go out, i'm glad you're leaving.

[Tank]

I just want to clarify one point about the MAA's indoor rules.
Yes our limit is 350 w/.20 and most games are full auto. However we also have a 10' no-shoot rule, where if you are within 10' you are to call for surrender. If a player fires at another player within 10' (weather or not they hit their target) BOTH players are dead. Also, our surrender rules state that the surrender is NOT optional. If a player (properly) calls for surrender you HAVE to take it. No "Rambo" **** here.


Now I'll leave you all to your (standard) petty arguing that is the cancer that is destroying the WAA.

[The_Jackal]

Guys, its just a game. You guys need to relax. I can see wear maple is coming from when he said the things he said. As for the FPS issue, its up to the field owners to decide on what to allow and what not to allow. So all of this arguing is NOT going to get anything done, besides pissing people off. It would be very said to see the WAA fall apart from something as dumb and trival as an FPS issue.


---PS: I know that isn't the only issue. Its the only issue I am aware of.

[Maple]

Thought I would share this PM I received today. I will keep the sender's name out of it unless he cares to speak up for himself.
Apparently I am a liar. Can't say that I have any record of ever receiving an email, PM or other correspondence from this fella, but the proof must be there, because I am being called a liar.


"I can't speak for the rest of the WAA officers, or the membership at that, but I have never once ignored anybody (member or not) who has contacted me in regards to the WAA. I find it hard to believe that GB or Crow would either"



you are a liar here. i have been trying to be able to post on the waa since june and i havenot had one email responded to. so i think that you should take back that statement or let me post.

thanks"

[Beest]

^^^ The closet posters are my favorite.

[Maple]

Oh wait, maybe I am not as big of a liar as some may think. Here's what really happened: (discovered after 5 minutes of research)

"While I can appreciate that you are having difficulty in posting on the forums, the problem with your account is that you have yet to respond to the email verification that is MANDITORY for posting here.

When you signed up you were sent an email for verification purposes from the forum system, that email must be responded to in order to post here. I reviewed your account and the status is 'Awaiting Email Confirmation'. That means that while you joined on August 18th (Not June) you have not responded to the email, so you have not been allowed to post. If you wish I will happy to resend the activation email so that you can respond and begin posting on the WAA forums."

Perhaps now you can see why I am a bit of an asshole. I get PM's like this frequently, calling me a liar (or worse) because somebody didn't follow simple protocals. At least once a week I get somebody PM-ing me pissed off about this that or the other thing, when it turns out something simple was over looked or missed. I am still waiting to get a "sorry about that" from any of these folks.

So to a way back post, if you do PM myself or the other exec's, we do indeed reply. But only if we are actually PM'ed.
if you are a member and feel you have been mistreated or ignored, we have a whole "members only" (like the jacket) section that can be used for WAA private business, instead of letting bad juju build up and exploding on the public forums, you can simply address it there..... before getting to the point of pissed-ness.
-mat

[seppuku]

FYI: I split off the CQB velocity "discussion" (and other off-topicness) from THIS THREAD (http://wiairsoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3268) into there. Please feel free to continue the debate in a constructive, positive manner.... >spongebob

[majwinters636]

ok 350 i think is fine... if your wearing propper BDUs that are long sleaves it will hurt but not cause to much damage..also full face would be a must for any cqb. we play a game where we shoot hard plastic bbs at high velocities at each other. its gonna hurt a little so either toughen up and play with the field requirements or go home.

thats all i have to say.

[Beasthunter33]

Time to bust out the Tinman Costume....

[seppuku]

Moved from Events to Newcomers area.