Event/Game Organizer Tips

[Jun Wen]

Hi everyone. I'm tinkering on a side project around site for airsoft game organizers. Basically I'm looking for any major lessons or tips that game organizers have. These suggestions can vary from having first aid kits to ensuring that the game won't stop just because the "wrong side" won the last mission. I'm sure players can also throw out some observations as well, like annoyances with long waits between missions and, in my case, how to deal with complete unfamiliarity with any given field. I'd prefer to have suggestions pulled from experience rather than pure speculative opinion. An example would be... uh... huh... well... maybe when a person who's never been to a game suggests that alleged cheaters get a swift kick in the jewels to teach them a lesson. ... Anyway, hopefully we get some interesting discussion points here and I can add some content to the project. Thanks.

[jedibgp]

My only gripe... is... That 90% of games are on Sundays. It would be cool to have Saturday and Sunday games then players could play twice a weekend if they want to. And "maybe" having a Friday night or a night game once a month to try something new.

I know this is a field owners choice/decision but..... with most jobs in my area work on Sundays and I'm having to make a choice... Airsoft... or...Work.... And Airsoft for now. :(

[Freeze]

Always make a back up plan in case you get to much people, or to few. lol I had to do that with my game. And be flexable

[Kerrik13]

I've only run one event so far, but I think i've been to enough to try to help move this topic along. Running a successful event is much harder than most players realize and a thread like this could become pretty valuable.

1) Even out the teams, unless it's a mil-sim/themed event. We experienced this at Iron Horse and it was not fun... an underdog team of less people with all new players taking on a team completely filled with experienced teams and players that spent a majority of the day defending. The result was a very frustrated team with players who paid to play that aren't having fun. Try to even the teams so that it is fair... unless of course you are making some sort of mil-sim game. If you are, make sure all the players are aware of the most likely outcome. I've seen games where a whole team was told they were supposed to lose in order to progress the storyline and they are fine with it... all because they knew what was going on.

2) Complexity. Although a lot of event coordinators have some fantastic ideas on how to add in-depth storyline and scenarios, the K.I.S.S rule really does hold true to airsoft. A rule of thumb I have started to use is that whatever scenario you have in mind, expect only 50% of the people to be listening when you go over it, and only 50% of those people to actually understand the scenario in full. Even when rules are clearly explained on paper handed out to people, they still get it wrong and don't understand. Unless you are looking to put complexity into the game, having clearly defined and easy to understand objective rules will probably be your best bet.

3) Referees are a good thing for your game. They seem to keep people a bit more honest and they are there to help answer questions involved with the game. Make sure all the referees are on the same page and have the correct information or it will cause a lot of problems with confused players.

4) The best thing that can happen for all the players involved would be to make it possible for both teams to have a lot of fun. If the missions are completely one sided, the other team may feel like they didn't have a chance and are getting their butts handed to them. Losing players become frustrated and winning players have a lot of fun. Adding in some additional elements that give both teams a chance to gain something makes the players feel better. Ever read an after action report on this message board like this one?... "The game was alright. Every scenario we played during the day involved us getting stomped and we ended up losing everything throughout the game."... compared to this one... "The event was pretty fun. Even though we lost most of the scenarios, a few of us were able to control some of the objectives and accomplish some of the side missions." The difference is a player who felt like they got destroyed at a game and a player who lost but had fun participating in some of the elements of the game.

5) Give a bit of extra thought to the different sides of your game. 99% of airsofters have "Good Guy syndrome". We like to play the US team or the side with the superior military because that allows us to shoot "bad guys". As a player, I do enjoy taking minimal gear and my AK-47 onto the field and playing a ragtag bad guy, but I prefer and enjoy playing as the US team the most. It isn't always a big deal, but some players don't like to play the team that doesn't fit there style.

6) Special effects, even simple ones, really seem to increase the enjoyment of the game. A $7 smoke grenade popped off at the right time can really add to the atmosphere of an event.

That's all I can think of right now... I will try to post more when I remember them later.

[Kingmob3]

KISS is your best friend, use a point system that is balenced, and set up objectives so that they can be "re used". Things like comm towers that have to be controlled and are worth a set ammount of points every hour are exelent.

If you have the people, haveing a shadow force that can level the playing field, and help the under dog, or just reign in the supirror force makes a nice touch. And usually you can get it set up so that the shoadow force are the "bad guys" so everybody feels like a good guy.

Another option for the good guy/bad guy thing is to make up a conflict, and operating theater.That way you have people who can show up in anything, and be the good guys.
KM

[Maple]

*Chair-Softer Alert!*


My feelings can be summed up fairly easy:

Structure the game how you want to.

If you want to hold a basic CTF game, do it. If you want a multi-objective based game, so be it. If you want to make a hard-core military recreation, then by all means, go for it.

Just be aware ahead of time that not all players like the same style of game play. If you are merely looking for a large number of participants, then KISS is your best answer.
If you are looking to recreate a particular military operations, then do some research and put "military like" rules in palce for the day. (Mind you, not every soldier carries a radio)
Each and every person that plays airsoft enjoys a different style of game play. You may enjoy carrying 8 hi-caps and running through 10,000+ bb's in a day. While another player may enjoy "real-cap" mags and counts a good day as one that involves little to no firing.

As most "big" games are geared towards a broad audience, you need to make the rules/ ideas something that the majority will enjoy. At the same time, make sure to enforce the rules so a handful of people don't ruin the day for everybody. It only takes one or two people to turn a game from "mil-sim" (I'm using this term to describe the majority of games) into a bb fest with no point other than inflicting as much pain as possible on the opposing team.

One other thing to keep in mind is that no matter how "Mil-sim" you try to mke a game, every person there knows that there is an opposing force. Not all military operations involve a opposing force. Hell, soldiers can sometimes walk around for days to discover that the "enemy" has already left the area, or didn't exsist at all.
If you want to have fun with your players at your next planned game, make them all on one team and send them out to recon an area. At the end of the day, when they ask who "won", tell them that they did, seeing as there was no enemy out there. :D (Be warned, you'll have a lot of people pissed off at you)

Final though, you don't need to have a "special forces" team at every event. To the best of my knowledge, there are only a few thousand "operators" in the US and the don't partake in every operation that the military has.
I know, everybody wants to the the elite NavyNinjaDeltaEODSniperSEAL, but life doesn't always work out that way. ;)

-mat

p.s. Even simple props make a game better, spend a couple of bucks to make a sat dish or a rocket launcher. You players will be happy you did.

[Agent J]

*
If you want to have fun with your players at your next planned game, make them all on one team and send them out to recon an area. At the end of the day, when they ask who "won", tell them that they did, seeing as there was no enemy out there. :D (Be warned, you'll have a lot of people pissed off at you).




I would love that, that would be so funny. As long as it wasn't expensive or really inconvenient though.


From my own experience, lots of communication is needed, especially regarding any rules that change because of scenario outcomes.

[Gryphon]

Just a quick question for Col. Maple from a Wisconsin event organizer:

So, would structuring your scenario game "any way you want" include writing your own rules set to suit your vision of play, or is it better for the sport if all scenarios in a geographic area (say, Wisconsin) use the same core rules set?

I'm confused, because the VP of the WAA seems to be arguing one way ("do your own thing") on this thread, and exactly the opposite ("Wisconsin airsoft sucks because nobody uses standardized rules") on another, related thread.

Jun Wen, this is a good topic for the WAA to discuss. It is also a huge topic. Scenario games run in a continuum from week-long full-immersion Scandinavian-style LARPs where each player must audition and be approved for a specific role and entry fees can run up to $200 a head, to scenario series events like those Justin Brown runs in Illinois, to unthemed one-day Big Games where the only goal is to lay fire. If you haven't already, you may wish to research Live Action Role Playing to see just how far the scenario setting idea can be taken. Nik Cook's NEXUS game system (www.n-e-x-u-s.org) is a good example of an airsoft-based LARP that lies in about the middle of the continuum. Any of the Scandinavian sites are good examples of the roleplaying extreme.

I've written a set of airsoft LARP rules inspired by the now (sadly) defunct TV show "Firefly" that I hope to use as the basis for a scenario game series sometime in the (hopefully) not too distant future. If, after reading up on LARPs, you have any specific questions, write me off-list and maybe I can be of some use, or at least steer you somewhere useful.

[Ghostbear]

Gryphon,

Just remember there are two different things being discussed here. One is the RULES and one is the GAME RULES.

The Rules should be standard, things like FPS, 10ft Min Engagement, No Blind Fire, Sniper Rules and such SHOULD be standard, and for the most part ARE standard. That will allow for more people to be involved in the gameplay. For instance there was a game listed just a little bit ago that has the standard FPS at 350 or something like that. Well, that makes quite a few people unable to use their primary at that game, as they have strived to put their primary in the area of 380 or higher. So, that in itself is a deterent to attend that game. Now, you CAN make that a rule for your games, but it is your choice. The differences in rules can also make people break them without thinking as many have been playing with the same rules since they picked up an AEG.

Now, the same does NOT apply to the game rules. Game rules include things like Medic rules and Regen Rules. These are up to the organizer and there are no underlying set of rules for these components of gameplay.

So, make sure you are talking about the right rules when discussing things, because it is important.

[Gryphon]

Thanks, Ghostbear. Would it be possible for the WAA to use this forum to develop and post a set of Standardized Core Rules, such as you describe, that all scenario designers in Wisconsin could be encouraged to adopt? And, could that Core Rules set please include basic rules for indoor/CQB?

Also, exactly which areas should be covered by the RULES, and which can be GAME RULES left to individual game organizers? For example, would you consider rules for grenades, heavy weapons, or vehicles to be RULES or GAME RULES?

I appreciate your willingness to work with Wisconsin event organizers and sponsors to resolve this issue, and hope we can together develop a viable system soon.

[79TransAm]

Gryphon try looking here, there is some basic rules
http://wiairsoft.com/documents/charter.pdf

ive cooled down a bit since last night so this post is ment to be constructive

On other state Airsoft Assocaition website they have a Manual of rules and saftey conducted typed up. This manual address everything from how to deal with bystanders, to rules of surrender. I know that these rules are generally spelled out in the FAQ but perhaps it would be helpfull to get them in a document and spell out such specifics as Surrender, Grenade rules, WAA accepted smoke grenades, ECT.

Also can somebody tell me what the KISS set up is that people keep refering too

[Downslide]

KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid.

Cheers.
http://www.thescifiworld.net/img/smilies/stargate/jack2/jack_new20.gif

[Kerrik13]

Gryphon, your "Firefly" themed game idea you have is interesting... there have been a few game types that I have always wanted to try but never tested out yet.

The first one is a horror themed zombie game like Resident Evil utilizing low powered guns and special rules for zombies. This went over pretty well in California with Op: Biohazard. My team is going to test out some rules during practices and see if we can get a bigger game going later this year.

The second one is a storyline based LARP. Now, before you yell "Boo LARP boo" and post stupid pictures of people dressed up in cat suits with foam weapons, hear me out. The idea I had was more of an interactive storyline with an emphasis on real-cap magazines, players really not wanting to die, and several extremely easy to remember attributes for characters. Players could dress up for different roles and could gain benefits from different things. For instance, armor could be used in a game like this to help characters stay alive... such as plate carriers, bullet proof vests, flak vests, helmets, etc. I am not talking about the "rock paper scissors to see if I punch you" LARP or the "throw a color chalked bag of rice to hit with you a paralyze spell" LARP. The kind I am toying with is mainly for storyline purposes and an emphasis on interaction instead of just BB-hosing all day.

For example, imagine playing on a field where there are two distinct groups of players... a local town and some roving bandits. When you start the game you have a certain amount of ammunition, money, and basic supplies. With that money you could purchase extra ammunition, water, food, etc... You immediately have two choices; fill in with the local townsfolk or go out and join the roving bandits. Let's say you go with exploring the town and you find out that some hired soldiers protect it from the bandits. The soldiers inform you that only guards are allowed to carry rifles in the town and force you to check in your rifle. You are looking to make money so you decide to help them by joining the town's defense. You're given some extra ammunition, a permit that allows you to carry a rifle, and some simple body armor in exchange for going out and fighting some of the bandits... which is risky becuase you have limited ammunition and when you die, you lose all your assets and have to rejoin the game as a new character.

Would anyone be interested in a game like this?

[jedibgp]

Just remember there are two different things being discussed here. One is the RULES and one is the GAME RULES.


You are 100% right Ghostbear ,but there is a third set of rules that you/we forget....FIELD / FIELD OWNER's These rules over rule the other two sets and even the WAA ,because.... it's the FIELD OWNER's land and he/she can do what the hell they want. But the FIELD OWNER still needs to follow the County, State, and Fedral laws but next to those everything is open to interpretation (no eye protection, no FPS limits, or no "bang" kills). Also the other thing that controls FIELD / FIELD OWNER's rules is being sued over stupid things. I've seen this with the rules on using knivies/swords because out of the 4 fields I've played at 50 % allow them. And I think that is because no one wants to lose a head/ be sued over a sword kill....

My wisdom of the day.... The WAA can control so much it is "Ultimately" it's the FIELD OWNER's decision to follow the rules/laws

[Gryphon]

TransAm, thank you for the reference to the WAA charter. I've read this document and used it as part of the basis for the Nostromo series rules set, but I do not think it qualifies as a Core Rules Set of the type Ghostbear referred to as RULES. Why? Because the WAA charter rules include an number of items Ghostbear himself listed as optional GENERAL RULES (detailed Medic Rules, for example.)

So, what I'd like from the WAA leadership, if they are indeed genuinely interested in working with scenario designers/event sponsors/field owners to develop Wisconsin-standard Core Rules, is an outline presented on this forum of exactly what they feel these CORE RULES should be. This way, we can all know exactly (instead of vaguely) what we are discussing, we can show them to our field owners and insurers to get their input, we can negotiate and agree on details, and thereby hammer out a Core Rules system that is viable for all parties involved.

Jedi's post goes to the heart of the matter: the players are not the only parties with a stake in the structure of a rules system. I am interested in developing and maintaining a working relationship with the WAA if the WAA is willing to take this first step by providing an outline proposal for a WAA Core Rules system.

[seppuku]

No offence to anyone, but I think this topic is meant more for sharing ideas/tips about running a game, rather than game ideas or content. Feel free to start a different thread about game concepts if you want though. (Kerrik, I could even split off your post into this new thread, if you so desire; just send me a PM.)

Jun, please correct me if I'm wrong....


Hi everyone. I'm tinkering on a side project around site for airsoft game organizers. Basically I'm looking for any major lessons or tips that game organizers have. These suggestions can vary from having first aid kits to ensuring that the game won't stop just because the "wrong side" won the last mission. I'm sure players can also throw out some observations as well, like annoyances with long waits between missions and, in my case, how to deal with complete unfamiliarity with any given field. I'd prefer to have suggestions pulled from experience rather than pure speculative opinion. An example would be... uh... huh... well... maybe when a person who's never been to a game suggests that alleged cheaters get a swift kick in the jewels to teach them a lesson. ... Anyway, hopefully we get some interesting discussion points here and I can add some content to the project. Thanks.

[Maple]

Just a quick question for Col. Maple from a Wisconsin event organizer:

So, would structuring your scenario game "any way you want" include writing your own rules set to suit your vision of play, or is it better for the sport if all scenarios in a geographic area (say, Wisconsin) use the same core rules set?

I'm confused, because the VP of the WAA seems to be arguing one way ("do your own thing") on this thread, and exactly the opposite ("Wisconsin airsoft sucks because nobody uses standardized rules") on another, related thread.


GB's explanation sums up what I was getting at.
I do believe that a common rule set should be adopted by the WI fields. At the same time, I do understand that field owners have the final say in what goes and does not go at their fields. Not trying to argue that.

As for the difference between rules and scenario rules, what I meant by "any way you want" is that your scenario rules should be set up how you want them. Respawns/ medics, rules of engagement, etc. should reflect the sort of game you want to hold.
Things like safety, FPS limits, etc. (IMO) should have a set standard across the board. Heck, I would love to see a set standard in the US, but i am not so dumb as to believe that all 50 States would see eye to eye on the topic.

[Jun Wen]

Yeeeah.. I've pulled some pieces for my own benefit, but the discussion is interesting enough for me to not really mind so much.

[Ghostbear]

Jedibgp,

I feel that the Field Owners rules are going to be divided into those two rulesets. The FO (Field Owner) will have at his/her discression the rules completely. So, if they want to have a game that has no eyewear requirements, they can. Not that many people would show for it, but they could. But, whatever the FO does with any modifications, it will be to rules in one of those two sets. Either a mod to the Rules or to the Game Rules. So, that would be where I left it at two sets. But, yes, the rules AND laws of the Fed, State, County, Municipality all override the FO's rules. So...

[Maple]

You are 100% right Ghostbear ,but there is a third set of rules that you/we forget....FIELD / FIELD OWNER's These rules over rule the other two sets and even the WAA ,because.... it's the FIELD OWNER's land and he/she can do what the hell they want. But the FIELD OWNER still needs to follow the County, State, and Fedral laws but next to those everything is open to interpretation (no eye protection, no FPS limits, or no "bang" kills). Also the other thing that controls FIELD / FIELD OWNER's rules is being sued over stupid things. I've seen this with the rules on using knivies/swords because out of the 4 fields I've played at 50 % allow them. And I think that is because no one wants to lose a head/ be sued over a sword kill....

My wisdom of the day.... The WAA can control so much it is "Ultimately" it's the FIELD OWNER's decision to follow the rules/laws

I don't think anybody has ever forgotten about the field owners. The WAA rule set was developed "back in the day" with field owners involved in the process and helping make decisions.
I agree that owners need to be aware of the laws, but at the same time, the WAA rulest does not contradict any laws and is merely offered as a suggestion to help unify field rules, whether a field is in Milwaukee, Green Bay or black River Falls.
To the best of my knowledge (mind you I have only been VP since March, so I am not privy to some past WAA information) the WAA has never forced or tried to force their way of thinking on anybody. Yes, field owners have been approached by the WAA in hopes that the rules would be adopted, but since we are not field owners oursleves, we only suggest adopting them.

One thing to bear in mind, is yes, the WAA ruleset may need to be looked at and updated, but at the same time, we can not have a rule for every little thing. Things like "sword" kills sound rediculous to me, but then again, some folks may want them. Far be it from me to tell them that they can't use them, but to me, this sounds like a scenario/ skirm rule rather than a "core ruel".

(Hopefully you all see what I am getting at thus far) :)

For those of you new to the WAA forums, sh*t fests like this happen at least once a year. Folks expect a lot from the WAA (even though they often don't even know what they really want) and are not willing to work with the WAA on them. Instead they make personal attacks, whether cloaked or outright, and expect "us" (WAA officials and members) to take them and not defend ourselves.
One thing to make note of is that the WAA is not a elite organization. Anybody can join, anybody can vote, and if you want to make a change, all you have to do is propose it and ask to have it put to a vote. If you don't like a person in a chair seat or official capacity, they can be removed.
But you must be a member to do any of this.
Heck, if a group of 20 people wanted to make a change, they could all become members and probably push through the changes. If you want to have all guns firing 550+ fps, all you have to do is propose it.

I will be the first to admit that I am an asshole. If you get to know me, then I am still an asshole. If we become friends, then I am a friendly asshole. I make no excuses about it. Ass= Mat. Hole= Schmidt
Put them together and you get me. at the same time, I am a fair person and am willing to hear out people's problems.
When I first mentioned the problem with no centralized ruleset, it was not meant to be an attack on any person(s). Simply a statement.
Just the same as people are questioning me, I asked about the 350fps rule. Sure, some places may do it, heck I have heard of places overseas doing 400fps with no minimum engagement distances, but at the same time, I have played in many a CQB and have seen what 320fps (on semi auto) can do to bare skin at 1ft. away.
And yes, shots from that close will happen. 10ft. rule or not. They will happen. They happen in out door games where you can see people from several hundred feet away, and they will happen in an indoor game when you turn the corner and there's a tango!

I don't think myself better than any noob, even though I have been playing for some time now. I know plenty of guys who have been playing since the 1990's who have far more experience than I do. When they speak up, I tend to listen. Why, because they have seen a few things that I have not.
Unfortunately, we have a lot of "big d*ck" syndrome going on, on these boards, folks who don't want advice, and won't hear it if it is offered.

In close, I will swing back if somebody decides to drag me and my name through the dirt. I am human. Should I try to be a bigger man...... maybe, but I am not.
yeah, I start sh*t sometimes, because the forums members who have been around awhile (which there are not many of anymore thanks to some of the asshattery that has gone on) have heard a lot of the same old "I play in my front yard. I live in Milwaukee" kind of BS for years. So yes, some of the senior forums members tend to get pissy sometimes.
But that goes with me being an asshole...... which I am.

[Ghostbear]

Gryphon,

I am failing to see where the charter is not a Base Ruleset for airsoft...

Under the Rules of Conduct it addresses:

Weapons Section Addresses:
FPS, Transportation, Safe Zone Conduct, AD's, Chrono Specs, Minimum Engagement Specs, Surrender Specs

Safety Equipment Section Addresses:
Eyeware Specs and Requirements, Age limitations in regard to Eyeware, Special Conditions to Emergency Responses, Unarmed/Non-Combatant Conditions, CQB headgear/Face Protection and Exclusions

Property Section Addresses:
Reasonable Expectations toward Landowner's Property, Landowners Special Rules Assessments, Pyro/Smoke Rules.

Conduct Section Addresses:
A reasonable response for when hit, what to do and how to call out/hit, Statements in the text also state "if" medic rules apply you may be required to... responses, Dead men dont talk rules, Dont use dead players for cover and concealment statement, Further "if" medic rules for responses on swaping weapons, Further "if" medic rules.... Friendly Fire is just that.. Fire, reasonable attempt to not take head shots unless that is only option.

Physical Contact Section Addresses:
No Aggressive Physical Contact Allowed, Real Knives and edged weapons are not allowed, Ability to use plastic/rubber knives, Ban of use of prop knife in offensive manner against another player.

Personal Conduct Section Addresses:
No alcohol, recreational drugs and such on the field at any time.

Disputes Section Addresses:
Reasonable process for resolving disputes of gameplay and non-hit calls. Including OC guidelines on some reasonable responses to excessive use of the disputes by a player or team.

Non-Emergency Communications Section Addresses:
How to contact the OC during the game without causing your team to be discovered or contacting within a firefight.

NPC Section Addresses:
Non player characters and how they are to be dealt with in the game. Including some guidelines for Combat Photographers and what they should expect from being 'in game' while shooting photos.

Disciplinary Actions Section Addresses:
What happens when you don’t follow the rules


I don’t really understand what you are asking for... Did you want a cut and dried list from 1 to 100 of the rules for what to do? Because that will never happen. There is no way to boil down all the possible rules that have been enacted to cover specific items inside of a skirmish design.

I have seen dozens of methods for medic rules, and while the items listed in that document are not applicable to every situation, they are still a great set of Base Rules for how medics can operate, if you chose to Extend the Base Rules to allow the medic to buddy carry, but only if they actually throw you over their shoulder or physically drag you out of harms way, you can (which I have been at a game that had that, at least till people went bonkers over having the drag handle on the backs of their vests ripped off) . But, that is extending a base rule. And as it is an extension it should be up to the event organizer to choose. But, if the organizer simply states that medic rules apply, then the Base Rules of the charter are satisfactory and complete in detail enough to accomplish the goal of having medic rules that work in a skirm.

Again, these rules that are in the charter are Base Rules, you should not be mandating less then the rules provided in the charter. These rules are to be used to be built on, not torn down or made inflexible. Making a rule that is more restrictive, sure we could do that, we could mandate full seal full face paintball headgear; it IS "safer" than just shooting glasses. But, this is the baseline, the level of safety that is acceptable to the players and STILL PROVIDE A REASONABLE LEVEL OF SAFETY AGAINST HARM AND INJURY. That is NOT saying it is the LOWEST level of safety, but it is the PLAYER ACCEPTED LEVEL. IF the players wanted full seal and full face, then THAT would be in the charter and not the z87.1 Glasses.

[Gryphon]

Sorry, Ghostbear, I guess I'm not making myself clear. I'll try one more time. Thanks for your patience.

When I pointed out the inconsistency in Maple's statements regarding the need for standardized rules for all Wisconsin games, you made the distinction between "rules" (i.e., those items that the WAA feels should be standard and unvaried from game to game) and "general rules" (those that could be varied to meet the needs of a particular scenario or setting.) All that I'm asking is this - on the WAA charter and rules, which do you consider to be "rules" that should apply all the time at all Wisconsin games, and which do you consider to be "general rules" that are OK to modify? Those that should apply all the time at all games would constitute a Core Rule Set, the others would be advisory rules. (Alright, maybe I'm asking for a little more than that, I'd also like to know what the WAA thinks are appropriate FPS limits for indoor CQB games in Wisconsin, and whether or not the WAA thinks full-auto fire should be allowed in indoor CQB games, since there are no WAA rules regarding these issues. Also, does the WAA have any opinions or rules recommendations regarding the use of kill rags, grenades, heavy weapons, and vehicles in scenario events - all things I use regularly in my games?)

Before this discussion started, I had considered the WAA rules as an example of a viable bare-bones basic rules set used by one Wisconsin-based club, any part of which could be modified to suit a specific situation. Then came a strongly-worded statement from a WAA officer suggesting that the WAA rules should be the standard set for all games in Wisconsin or else such games were undermining the sport in our state, then (rather than refuting his position) you attempted to justify his position by distinguishing between "rules" and "general rules," and now you say that the WAA rules are "base ruleset" which represents the minimal required level of safety and organization.

Here is why this matters: you guys advertise yourselves to be THE blanket organization for all matter airsoft in Wisconsin. I might be willing to bring my scenarios into compliance with your standards if I understood what those standards are. If my games already meet or exceed those standards, then Maple's derogatory statements regarding the poor quality of airsoft games in Wisconsin, and our NW games in particular, were simply out of line and should be refuted, rebuked or retracted by the other officers in the WAA, rather than parsed or rationalized with ad-hoc distinctions.

Concrete example that could be simply answered:
If the WAA rules are minimal standards instead of core rules, does this mean that the WAA considers it acceptable that we require full-seal goggles at our events, or does the WAA consider this to be an undesireable inconsistency between Wisconsin games? Would our ability to seek WAA sanction for our games be affected by this deviation from the WAA ruleset since our rules exceed the minimal safety requirements of the WAA rules? Is the goggle rule as it is written in the WAA ruleset a "RULE," a "GENERAL RULE," or a "BASE RULE?"

[seppuku]

....
1) Even out the teams, unless it's a mil-sim/themed event. We experienced this at Iron Horse and it was not fun... an underdog team of less people with all new players taking on a team completely filled with experienced teams and players that spent a majority of the day defending. The result was a very frustrated team with players who paid to play that aren't having fun. Try to even the teams so that it is fair... unless of course you are making some sort of mil-sim game. If you are, make sure all the players are aware of the most likely outcome. I've seen games where a whole team was told they were supposed to lose in order to progress the storyline and they are fine with it... all because they knew what was going on.
....
As a player, I think this is an excellent point. I've actually been in a game where one team was more or less "scripted" to win. When that team failed to meet some objective or another, the event organizer did not have a backup plan to continue with the scenerio, and we played an impromptu "pick-up" game instead. Additionally, I personally wouldn't like being told that I'm supposed to lose. I like to feel I have some control over my own destiny, and I'm not really into "reenactments".

[Maple]

If my games already meet or exceed those standards, then Maple's derogatory statements regarding the poor quality of airsoft games in Wisconsin, and our NW games in particular, were simply out of line and should be refuted, rebuked or retracted by the other officers in the WAA, rather than parsed or rationalized with ad-hoc distinctions.


Here, since you are so hot to point out what an asshole I am, I will refute/ rebuke/ retract my own statements.

I have already made my intentions known to the WAA, but I will state them publicly.
As my views differ from some (I can not speak for all members because they have not sounded off yet) WAA members, I intend on stepping down from the VP office and quitting the WAA entirely.

Yes, I do think WI airsoft sucks. I don't feel like going back and reading everything that I previously wrote, but if you discuss this with your "co-producer" (not meant to be derogatory) of NW WI games (armsdealer) you will find out that I did not place blame on either of you for ruining airsoft in WI, etc, but instead I reaffirmed that I did not think he was running "unsafe games" at all.
In fact, if you go back to my early posts about airsoft in NW WI, you'll see that I offered my assistance in anyway that I could. I was not taken up on this, which is fine, but don't think that I ignored NW WI airsoft out of spite, anger or anything else.

It seems that you are now taking this all personal and trying to drag my name around in the dirt. I will help you, I AM AN ASSHOLE. I have some how made airsoft less fun. I deserve to be banned from the sport. Whatever.
You've proved your point. But instead of PM-ing GB or other WAA execs trying to work with them, all you are doing is calling us out in a public forum trying to make us look like sh*t.
You win.
Please feel free to join the WAA and offer up yourself as the VP. I will gladly hand over the reins to you and let you deal with this kind of sh*t. Because no matter how hard you try, no matter what you do, people will always take offense at something you say.

So to summarize, I am stepping down from the VP slot.
Good luck to the WAA. If you are smart, you will spend the war-chest money, disband and form an org. that is not here to serve the airsoft general public, but rather to serve the membership only. Because no matter what you do, some bitch will always try to knock you down a peg.

Armsdealer, my offer still stands, I am glad you took the time to communicate with me tonight. Good luck with the business.

[Kerrik13]

So anyways, onto un-hijacking this thread... :P

Would players in Wisconsin be interested in specialized events like a zombie game, an airsoft story based LARP (probably a bit closer to the mil-sim game style discussed not too long ago, with real-cap mags and an emphasis on not BB hosing), or things like that?

I can easily see some really cool events never being attempted because of player disinterest... but paintball has proven that these games can be insanely fun.

[Ghostbear]

Gryphon,

I am tired right now, and I want to make sure how I am saying what I am saying. So, I will respond, but it wont be till later or tomorrow.

I just dont want to have too much for everyone else to read and have their eyes explode at the volume of text to get through. :wide-eyed

GB

[Agent J]

So anyways, onto un-hijacking this thread... :P

Would players in Wisconsin be interested in specialized events like a zombie game, an airsoft story based LARP (probably a bit closer to the mil-sim game style discussed not too long ago, with real-cap mags and an emphasis on not BB hosing), or things like that?

I can easily see some really cool events never being attempted because of player disinterest... but paintball has proven that these games can be insanely fun.

Personally, I think a zombie-style game would be kind of fun. Of course, getting 50 rounds unloaded into you as you're trying to chase people down might make people shrink from being zombies. On the other hand, I haven't gotten around to reading the rule sets that (I think) someone posted, so that's not really a qualified comment anway.

I think people should bring chain saws with the chains taken off and have a zombie game with those and pistols and shoguns!

[Gryphon]

Maple, I apologize if my tone implied an ad hominum attack on you. That was not my intention. I've never met you, I've never been to a game with you, so I'll just have to take your word for it regarding your personal character. :D

I know from personal experience that holding office in a volunteer organization is by and large a thankless task (Jun Wen, this has been known to apply to scenario refs and event organizers as well.) I've found that a certain measure of care with the use of one's words, and some understanding that not all the frustration/confusion directed AT a person is necessarily WITH that person - but rather with a particular situation - goes a loooong way in making a volunteer leader feel less like the world's biggest pincushion. The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, after all, are random and unaimed, making them more cruel in an existential sense, but also impersonal. In the public eye, you're gonna take fire no matter what you do, but it don't mean squat if you're doing your best.

Ghostbear, thank you again for your attempts to answer my questions. I appreciate the effort, and fully understand your need to take a little time to mull this over. All I'm really looking for is a little clarity regarding the official WAA attitude towards their own rules as well as the rules/events of other scenario game producers in the state, and a little consistency in expressing that attitude from WAA officialdom. I think this would go far in quenching many of the flames that so regularly flare up on this otherwise fine forum.

As Kerrick pointed out with admirable tact, we've inavertently hijacked this thread, so this will be my final post on this topic here. (everybody heaves a sigh of relief.)

[seppuku]

Moved from Events to Newcomers area.

[Jun Wen]

Long time no post. I'd figure I'd give you all a bit of an update on my project. I ended up turning it into a semester project for school. It's basically going to be a tool to assist in organizing events in the future.
Event Assistant (http://www.531.sba.uwm.edu/alexdhui/FinalProject/ProjectWebPages/default.aspx)
The tips will be organized and tossed onto a static page later on. Oddly enough, my database doesn't seem to like adding anymore sites into it. Strange. Anyway, it's definitely a work in progress, but the core functionality is there. Later on I might try to put up a moon calendar for anyone planning a night event.
Suggestions and clarifications are welcome.

[Defender 1]

Jun Wen, Thanks for starting this post.. it has contained valuable food for thought thus far

Kerrik- I'm down for doing a larp style game, but i'll need your help.. email me your idea and i'll try to put it into play.. I'd like to think I have a good field for this type of game. The one thing i'd be worried about (as an investor of sorts) is attendance. as we all know, there are some players that are all killer and no filler, and others that like to imagine they're captain kangaroo storming iwo jima (he actually did that ;) ) For a Larp game, it would require players that don't mind sitting around to play their role. For my "murder mystery" game, which is still being written, I'm going to plan it as more of a social event where people do the meet and greet thing over lunch as they sneakily try to kill eachother.. i don't know if thats the way to go and i welcome suggestions.

[Kerrik13]

A LARP style game would definitely be something that some people would really enjoy and some people would really NOT enjoy. But then again, that is fairly consistent with most of the style of airsoft games. Plus, it is different... so that might draw some people to the game as well. I am actually talking with Todd a little bit about a LARP idea that he has, so it looks like we will get the chance to give it a shot in the near future.

[Agent J]

For my "murder mystery" game, which is still being written, I'm going to plan it as more of a social event where people do the meet and greet thing over lunch as they sneakily try to kill eachother.. i don't know if thats the way to go and i welcome suggestions.

Have you (or has anyone else) ever played "The Ship" mod for Half Life? That mod's a lot like what I'm hearing from you there, is all.

It sounds fun, but might end up having to be a little complex to really last for very long. Otherwise you just kind of introduce yourself:

"Hey, I'm Bob and-BANG." You're dead.
"Okay, who wants to introduce themself next?" I ask, holstering my 399.9 fps pistol and pulling out my CAWS.

You see?

[Defender 1]

Kerrik-Hell yeah.

Agent J- That is a snag I'm trying to figure out..
I'm thinking that everyone would tie a balloon onto their back and the only way to kill someone is to pop that balloon (Armsdealer's idea).. also for this event, i would suggest springers be used.. I'll have to do some testing to see if a springer pistol would actually pop a balloon of course.. I doubt I'd spend more than an hour with this game, but we have an area which would be very useful for such a thing complete with an indoor bar, picnic area, bathrooms, showers...
The centurions will put this one through a trial before we make it part of a paid event.

Now I haven't played "the ship" but I have heard of it and it is very similar..
and thats what we're trying to do with the country jam field.. have games that are out of the ordinary "secure point A and hold for 15.7 minutes, then secure point B"

If you've got any other crazy game idea's send me an email and i'll consider having them at my field!

[Agent J]

Kerrik-Hell yeah.

Agent J- That is a snag I'm trying to figure out..
I'm thinking that everyone would tie a balloon onto their back and the only way to kill someone is to pop that balloon (Armsdealer's idea).. also for this event, i would suggest springers be used.. I'll have to do some testing to see if a springer pistol would actually pop a balloon of course.. I doubt I'd spend more than an hour with this game, but we have an area which would be very useful for such a thing complete with an indoor bar, picnic area, bathrooms, showers...
The centurions will put this one through a trial before we make it part of a paid event.

Now I haven't played "the ship" but I have heard of it and it is very similar..
and thats what we're trying to do with the country jam field.. have games that are out of the ordinary "secure point A and hold for 15.7 minutes, then secure point B"

If you've got any other crazy game idea's send me an email and i'll consider having them at my field!

I do like the balloon idea, and I certainly agree that you'd really have to limit the weaponry. Perhaps a springer with a few shots, and then a knife or something. But then that can become a little safety hazard. I haven't seen the country jam field, but I do think you'd need a fairly enclosed area, the intrigue disapates a little when someone just runs off three hundred feet and shoots anyone who follows them.

Oh yeah, (this is from The Ship) you've got to assign everyone a single target, and penalize them if they kill anyone else. I'm sure you can see why that would happen.


Also, I'd kind of like the idea of having a prisoner escape. 3 teams, guards, prisoners, and the prisoner's friends. I'm thinking 3 phases

1.) The guards are really spread out, and the prisoner's friends have to sneak past them, to get to the undefended prisoners, becvause the guards are armed much better than either of them. T

2.) Then the prisoners and their friends have to get to an armory to get better weapons, the armory might be very lightly defended.

3.) Then it's a full scale battle to get out of the prison.

Then you can try other things, of course, with that general idea.

[Defender 1]

Oooh.. good idea.. I'll think on that one too.. If you guys keep feeding me ideas, there's going to be a hell of a good lineup in Eau Claire..