Insurance

[Fusan]

Hello,
I am new, as you can see, and I am going to try starting an airsoft arena in the greendale area. I have a few questions about this.

For insurance, who would be the best provider and what do these insurance companies look at before they insure us?

I do have a legal release form set. I just need insurance because people will ALWAYS sue if something happens.

And I would like to also know if there are any other Milwaukee area fields for airsoft.

Thanks,
Fusan

[Stelthturkey]

Gary has his field in Adell, thats not to far from Milwaukee...

[Fusan]

Adell?!

Not far? That's an hour and a half drive from my place. Hour may not be that much for a trip. But to go there on a daily basis is not appealing. We are hoping to serve the Milwaukee area. We are about 2 mins from Southridge mall.

[Ameoba Grande]

are you going to be buying a building in the milwaukee area for cqb?

[Fusan]

We have the building already. But it is also a multipurpose building with 4000 sq. ft. of enclosed open area in the back (used to be a garage). So we need to get the project approved. The area will be set up with movable walls securely latched in place. We have many set ups that will be a lot of fun. And will change the layout every week. We also hope to get a lot of tournaments started with different teams.

[SINN FEIN]

Get this thing set up!!! Me and several friends will most definatly be interested.

[TrEvO91]

i am also very interested

[Stelthturkey]

I'm very interested as well... Although it would be a bit of a trip (comming from green bay), we, as well as many others have been talking about a cqb/indoor area to play in and this would be something we were for.

As far as insurance questions, talk to gary or the guys from Dragon's Lair...

[Fusan]

lol, I am trying to get this thing set up! And it's great to see there is interest.

About the insurance... I have to use the insurance that is already on the building. :\ this might be a little more difficult. But I will try my best.

[A-Ron]

Good luck with that insurance then. Most likely they will not cover airsofting. Not trying to be a party pooper or nothing, but, yeah... airsofting is one of those "things" that is very hard to insure.

[Freeze]

thats where the liability wavers come in to, so that it allows you not to be held liable if the people have signed it. As far as I know anyway, which is one of those things why Gary has us sign the health waiver and the field waiver, so it shows you know there ~can~ be some danger with the sport

[A-Ron]

...so that it allows you not to be held liable if the people have signed it....
Even if the waiver is signed, the owner can still be sued. Theres ways around a/the liability waiver that you do sign.

[Freeze]

True there are loop holes around almost everywhere for anything

[xKy13x]

If this goes through Me and about 5 other friends will come alot! Garys Field is a 1 and 20 minute drive which is far and much gas (and hard to find) Please get this workin. need anything just ask

[A-Ron]

...Garys Field is a 1 and 20 minute drive which is far and much gas (and hard to find)...
I make a hour and fourty five mintue drive every time I go there, which has been almost every weekend, and granted the gas is a minor set back, but its devotion to the sport for me.

Its not hard to find either, I dont' understand what is so hard to find about it.

[Fusan]

What should I name it? I do not like the other field's names. Any suggestions?

[Black_Kade]

-The Slaughter Box?

-Tangle Box?
-Killing Compound?
-Airsoft Dungeon?
-CS Live? - No Bunny hopping allowed...
Yeah I like Boxes, I live in one after all, gottal like em then... the first is my favorite.

[Freeze]

The Labrynth ?

[SigPro552]

Killhouse?

[Fusan]

Fire Pit?

Slaughter Pit?

Tactical Box?

No way out box of death accompanied by tactical forces shooting through your flesh of gnashing agony followed by bone crunching action delivered through the members of hell?

My co-worker suggested "T3" but have the 3 superscripted so it is like tactical cubed to represent tactical box.

I thought that was pretty cool

[Black_Kade]

Killhouse?

Taken, Killhouse is TFD's portable CQB facility if I remember correctly...

[SigPro552]

Gotcha. I do like the T^3 though. Pretty slick and a good idea.

[Fusan]

We talked to the insurance company. They will insure us for 5 grand a year. So we are a step closer. Now I have to recalculate prices and set up a estimated budget. Wish me luck.

[TrEvO91]

good luck then ;)

[SigPro552]

Yea, good luck! I'm a huge fan of having a field within 20 min of my house, especially a warehouse.

[Fusan]

"warehouse"

I have to warn you, it's probably smaller than you think. But with walls and obstacles up it makes it feel big.

I have broad shoulders, but I do not know how broad your guy's shoulders are. Well at some points I make them really confined. About 3 feet wide hallways. They are for sneaking and flanking. I hope that isn't too small. I tried it out and it's pretty cool, but I like small passages. You would have to have your gun straight out and hold it up when you want to turn. Also make sure that your holstered rifles are within your shoulders. But other than that everything else should be comfortable.

I also don't know of any obese airsoft players.

[Fusan]

I was also wondering if anyone of the more experienced kind would be kind enough to help me and see what would be good. They would meet me at the building and we could look at it together and share ideas and see what would be the best.

Again we are right by Southridge in Greendale on Loomis road.

[A-Ron]

We talked to the insurance company. They will insure us for 5 grand a year. So we are a step closer. Now I have to recalculate prices and set up a estimated budget. Wish me luck.
What all are they insuring?

[Jun Wen]

What will they require in order to have the insurance? FPS limits, semi/full auto, protective gear, etc.

I live a few minutes from Southrdige and wouldn't mind seeing the facility and offering some suggestions. On that note, 3 feet is pretty standard for hallways in homes, actually.

[Fusan]

...3 feet is pretty standard for hallways in homes, actually.


lol. Oh yeah... Well that answers that one.

The details on the insurance: ::shrug:: they will just insure us. There was no details or limits given.

Also, another issue. BB's. Where can I get some wholesale BB's? I tried "google-ing" it, but nothing that intrests me.

[Vigilante]

Hmm a name for it..

How about Kill Zone?

I dunno, first thing that popped into my head.

Shotgun Therapy?

I dunno, it sounds neat though, im not too far away from anything really... If ya need something, give me a buzz.

[Maple]

Not to sound like the wet blanket, but if you have no idea what the insurance requires, than you are in a world of trouble. A $5000 flat rate is rather low for this kind of activity and I am more than willing to bet that the insurance will be inadequate.
Insurance for sports like airsoft and paintball require indepth knowledge of items like FPS, whether or not face masks are going to be required, minimum engagement distances, etc.
Fusan, what is your background with the sport? Does Greenfield permit the shooting of airsoft guns within city limits? What is the age requirement? What insurance compnay are you using? What is the liability limits of the insurance? Is the parking lot private? Is this a private business, or is it being run out of a out building on your property? Finally, what is your age and do you own the building, or is it leased/ rented or owned by a family member?
Like I said, I am a wet blanket, but something sounds fishy to me when you come onto an airsoft forums for the first time a few days ago, asking a bunch of questions about a business you want to run.

-edit- Also, to give some of you a sense of how big 4000sq. feet is, figure your avearge 4 bedroom house is 2000-2400sq. feet. This does not include basement or garage. It also doesn't count those of you who live in a very big 4 bedroom house. I'm talking strictly middle class sized here.

-mat

[Timmay]

this sounds odd...

[Maple]

Almost forgot:
Is this going to be a business?
If so, insurance information is very important.
Also, what is an airsoft tournament?
How many players will be allowed to take the field at a time?
Is fighting going to be limited to semi-auto?
What type of safety equipment will be required and what type of medical equipment will be on hand?
Have you ever played in an organized CQB (and I'm not talking about you and firends, I'm talking about an organized game) for airsoft before?
What are the age requirements?
Will there be a safety briefing before each game? Will there be some sort of safety class that all players will have to take?
Have you squared it away with the local police department that there will be replica weapons used inside of this business? Or will you wait until you get busted for the first time?
What are the walls going to be made out of? Will they be able to support the weight of a 300lb. person if they fall?
What is the required FPS?

I could go on and on.
Instead of thinking of cool names and winding all the youngsters up, you may want to think about some of these items and provide answers to them.
I for one will not play at any field unless I know it is going to be safe. If trading bb's comes before safety on your list, you may want to rethink the business. Because it will only take one bad incident to tarnish airsoft in WI and trust me when I say "You don't want to be the one who ruins airsoft, d'ya?"

I will gladly offer my experience and knowledge, but it will cost you. If you are interested in having somebody with broad knowledge assist you, feel free to hit me up.
Don't let the general public on the boards tell you what to do, because it'll be the death of your business and airsoft as we all know it.
-mat

[Venus]

dude maple... word man!

[Fusan]

Woah woah woah. Maple.

Whats the beef? I came on this forum with questions that I could not find. A lot of things have been resolved and I am still working out the details. The building is in the Industrial Loop. The insurance for it is from the pre-exsisting insurance already on the building. It is a business. Owned by myself. Space is Rented. I am really close to the owner of the building.

The walls are using steel studs and we are working on a secure latching system. That will make them able to move and yet be secure where ever they are placed.

A lot of your questions seem to be prodding a pretty private area. If I wanted to further discuss these things with you I would have done so.\

All I wanted to do was have a place to airsoft from the public eye and do not worry about the "concerned" calls from the public.

There will be limits and different age groups. The Tournaments will be set up however style I see fit. I am not really going to do things the way everyone else does. I will have it safe though. Full face masks REQUIRED. Not just safety goggles. I have a chipped tooth to prove that full face masks are the best way to go. Equipment will be sold and also rented out. This project is still a little bit away. I just came here to ask some simple questions that will best suit my targeted audience. I think that is a very important move. You would not want to go to an airsoft field called "Bukake Lands". That would not be very appealing. I would like to get some fellow airsoft players' ideas out and make everyone feel more involved so they will feel more attached and welcome to a new place.

Sorry for intruding on the airsoft 'legacy'. I really don't know of any places to go. I wanted to make airsoft accessible to the more inexperienced players and newcomers, but yet create the same style of MilSim.

[A-Ron]

He's not trying to step on your toes. You came on the baords looking for advice, and asking questions and he is simply trying to help you by making you realize there is A LOT more to what you are trying to do than what you may see.

I would have done the same.

[Maple]

I have no beef.
I feel that all of the questions I asked are legitmate.
I have a lot of experience in this area and also a lot of concerns.

1. As the WAA VP, it is my business to try and make/ keep airsoft safe.
2. I have 4+ years of airsoft experience and have dealt with a lot of topics like these. I have played in a lot of different enviroments and want to make sure this will be a safe airsoft experience.
3. I have worked in the insurance industry for 10+ years and know a thing or two about insurance.

I am glad that you want to start an airsoft CQB business. My biggest concern is when statements are made about insurance and no other knowledge/ statement is given about it. Sadly, most people don't think about protecting themselves, they only worry about it after something has happened. And I mean this from both your side and the players.
Also, I asked these questions, because none of them had been addressed. Safety is key to any game and it should be what is touched upon. Also, a good public image is a major factor and should also be addressed.
I may be coming off like a dick, and I have no bones about being veiwed like one. But unless the items I listed are addressed, then you will be creating a potentially hazardous enviroment and that is what I don't want to see happen.
So good luck with your business. Hopefully you will address all of the items I have touched upon. I fail to see how I was getting personal, but I can see that you are going to take constructive criticism in a bad light.
-mat

[Fusan]

I was just worried he was trying to put down this project to weed out the hopes and dreams. I wanted to reaffirm that this was indeed close to happening.

We are going to try to make it as safe as possible. Since it is CQB, FPS on AEGs are 300 fps. And I do have limits for others.

My intent on this is to actually get people off the computer and get out. I am not expecting huge turnouts from 5+ year experienced players.

I am sorry maple, but your post seemed kind of a dick head response and did not want to deal with pessimistic people. It is at the end of the day. I am open to constructive criticism.

Now the insurance was handled by the building owner. He then relayed the information to me that it will cost 5 grand a year. That is all and that was all I was told to worry about.

The way the things are going to be played is by rounds. 10 people total in the arena. There will be a waiting/discharge lobby. Saftey rules will be explained before the round. I do not think I will hold classes for the 18+ age group. But for the younger crowd, yes. I will do Airsoft safety like firearm saftey, as I believe airsoft is a great way to teach people about gun safety. I really do not know what more safety requirements there would be.

-Sturdy walls
-Full face protection
-First aid
-Gun saftey

I really do not know what could be a problem other than that.

I am not really sure what you are expecting with this project. Again, as I said, this is for people that are getting into airsoft and interested in airsoft to have fun. Of course teams and leagues are welcome.

Again I am sorry for being defensive, it's in my nature :|

[element365]

Many stock guns from CA and G&G might be pushing the 300 fps mark, so 320-330 might make more sense. Also, the AEC (airsoft evaluation course) held by the WAA is there to educate us (the younger crowd) about safety and whatnot. I can understand where Mr. Butternut is coming from since every few months someone comes on the boards starts talking about the new field they'll be opening up. So far, I've never seen any of them get off the ground. What I suggest is to go to a skirmish at the Wargame Room next weekend and check it out to see how its all done before you open up a field with little previous knowledge of the sport.

[Maple]

Since I am coming off like a "dick head" I will close with this and not pipe in again.

You should really reconsider the approach that you are taking to CQB.
CQB is probably the single most dangerous type of airsoft play, since engagement distances go from 10+ ft. to 0+ ft. I think TFD (probably the most exprienced CQB players in WI) can attest that injuries happen and blood being drawn is a daily fact of life.
Targeting new and inexperienced players with CQB is asking for something bad to happen.
I would reccomend that all players, whether 18+ yrs. or older, take a CQB safety course. Cover things beyond basic safety, such as movement in a confined area, trigger control, emergency protocol, etc. before ever letting them hit the floor.
New players will not know how to move and safely fire in a CQB enviroment. They have little to no experience on the field, let alone in a close quarters enviroment where issues like blind firing can mean the difference between a some what safe game and somebody getting hurt... bad.
I would suggest inviting those who do have more than minimal CQB experience to check out the field ahead of time and give their honest, no BS opinions about it. From there, you have a good launching pad to determine what changes need to be made before opening the field up to new players.
You also have to remember that most of the folks on these forums have at least some field experience. Opening a business near Southridge will be inviting folks in that have little or no gun/ airsoft knowledge and just want to inflict pain on their "homies". Without good control and OCing, these types of people will put an end to your business and seriously hurt airsoft as a whole.

Just something to think about. No worries, I won't poop on your parade anymore.
-mat

[Night Stalker]

Great ideas, but let me get into this further. Now don't think anyone is trying to bring you down or burst your bubble. This whole avenue has been crossed many times by most of us here.

"Now the insurance was handled by the building owner. He then relayed the information to me that it will cost 5 grand a year. That is all and that was all I was told to worry about."

You have a whole lot more to worry about than that. At least for an indoor field. That is about what it would cost for standard liability on a storage or manufacturing facility. That guy who told you that has no idea in the world what it would run for what you are doing, or if you can even get coverage for THAT. That would cover just the building, not what goes on inside it.

Maybe you should actually call an insurance guy before you build, think of cool names, cool games, or get players worked up for something that has a 90% chance of not going to happen because of insurance or legal issues. Wait until you ACTUALLY go to the insurance carrier and pay your fee. And they start asking questions. You will obviously have to report to them that you are shooting plastic BBs at each other at 300 FPS and ranges from 12ft- to point blank. Because you WILL get into point blank regardless of how many refs/OCs and honest players you have. And 300 fps for indoors? Good luck. You will need more than full face. And where will you get these full face? Paintball is almost the only place that has them,. and believe it or not, they are not Anzi rated and will not stop all those shots. Trust me, I know. We run the TFD Killhouse.

Now before insurance, factor in that even though you are in an industrial complex, that doesn't mean it isn't city limits. It could be out of city limits. consider this, more than half the cities in WI, have rules against firing an airgun. Some places you cannot do it at all. You will have to check your local laws and discuss this wiht the local PD and possibly certain city officials just by the nature of what you are doing. If you are outside the city limits, you most likely catch hell from the local Sheriff Depts. You might want to consult with them. And like paintball, even IF you get insurance to cover you for a biz that shoots that high indoors, unless you got about 1/2 million $$$, the first time somoene gets an eye shot out even if it is their fault for removing a mask, you are done. And waivers don't mean a thing. Even a bad lawyer can get around a waiver, much less a high priced one.

So with all that having been said, tomorrow is Thursday, insurance companies are open all day. Give them a call before you go too far and waste all your time. It might be good to see exactly where you stand instead of taking someones word for it that "just owns the building". Because without insurance, you will be in business up until the point the Fire Marshall shows up to do his inspection, check to see you have proper fire prevention items, pass the building for code for that, and then you get a visit from certain city officials wanting to see a business liscense, sellers permit, certain paperwork for multiple employees that will need to OC the thing, possible permits granted by the city/county/ or state for operating something like this indoors, etc... And anything else they determine you will need from them or might not have while trying to run a business like this within their jurisdiction.

Most all of this is what we had to deal with when I opened an electronics store. I had to have massive coverage for the people that might just walk into the store and slip. Then had to have it inspected, Go before the city with my intentions, etc. etc. And you want to take it all a step further and shoot each other too?

You are better off running an outdoor field. Less hassle. You might want to call your local city business officials, explain what you are planning and have them point you in the right direction. They might not shut you down and might help you get started. Maybe not.

Good luck with that.

[Night Stalker]

Actually, I would say you are better off just getting an attorney and having them do all that work for you. Easier in the long run.

[Timmay]

Basically until i can evaluate it, i would oppose it until then.

Id rather err on the side of safe than have some kid get injured the first CQB, then have you find out insurance doesnt cover specific stuff, then have some kids parents sue your butt, THEN she starts a crazy campaign to ban airsoft in WI.

Call that way out there, but its really not far off if someone wanted to do it and carry through.

An AEC should be required, much less a basic CQB training day/course. CQB is bad news for people that dont know what they are doing.

[Texx]

Just to kinda chime in on Maple's behalf, its better that he makes you aware of the kind of questions you will need to have answers for now than at a trial trying to determine whether or not you will be held liable for someone's kid.

[Fusan]

Just to kinda chime in on Maple's behalf, its better that he makes you aware of the kind of questions you will need to have answers for now than at a trial trying to determine whether or not you will be held liable for someone's kid.


Absolutely. I have taken a lot of his questions in consideration. I am still working on this project, and having him come in and bring those things into question, when I am not really that far yet and thinking of other things, stressed me out. I was trying to get other things like budget set and trying to figure out costs to see if I could even pay for insurance (which will probably go up) and rent was really burning my mind out.

I am sorry for lashing out like that. I am trying to make this happen and when I am confronted with questions on things that haven't even been tweaked yet really upsetted me.

I am now on the part of rules and in the early beginnings of completing the rule sheet.

I would take suggestions on what you (airsoft community) would LIKE to see, as an airsofter, that you would really enjoy.

Again sorry for the lashing out in over-defense

[Vanac]

I would like to know what kind of equipment you will have for rent. Are you renting AEG's and GBB's?

[Night Stalker]

No sweat. Just don't want you to think it will be too easy and get everyone worked up. Just know what you got to do, and take it one step at a time.
Best bet, see a a lawyer first and get the hard stuff out of the way.

[Fusan]

I have a lawyer already, don't worry about that.

As for rented equipment. I will rent AEG's and spring pistols. No GBBs. Green gas (propane) would not really be safe in a an enclosed building.

Easy? Hah... definitely not.

[Vanac]

No GBB's?? That is one of the BEST weapons to use in a CQB situation. I don't want to sound like a troll...but if you restrict it to only AEG's and springers, then lots of people won't come.

[Freeze]

he said he wont be renting out GBBs so bring your own, and I'm not sure that its dangerous in a building , Nightstalker would know more about that than I would

edit: yes I know he said he might not do gas, but just say'n ^

[Night Stalker]

Well, his biz, his rules. he can run any gun for the place he wishes I guess. I don't think it really makes a difference on what your choice of gun would be, it is the FPS that would make or break.

The thing that puzzles me, if you already have a lawyer on retainer, you surely wouldn't be taking the building owners word for it on how much the insurance would run, and actually believe him when he says thats all you need to worry about.
Your lawyer would 100% tell you otherwise, and thats a fact. And you would have posted that you had a lawyer taking care of all that business for you instead of posting about what the building owner told you about insurance that definatly doesn't apply to you or what you are doing. Either way.

But, your show. I just hope it lasts longer than the first act since it could be a pretty cool place to go if you get your permits, insurance, licensing, and approvals in order. Good luck. it could turn out to be something cool.

[Fusan]

OK this is how it went.

I talk to the owner during lunch ( I work there already) and he said the insurance company said about 5000 a year. Today I find out that's what the guy estimated off the top of his head because he does not know anything about airsoft or paintball and needs to research it. THATS what happened.

The lawyer used to play paintball and is now interested in airsoft so he is researching a bunch of stuff.

I do not think GBB would be good. Think about it. Green Gas is propane. Propane is a fossil fuel. Fossil fuels burn in an explosive rate.

GBBs use propane to propel. The gas is not consumed. It has to go somewhere. And the building does have a ceiling. Now if a electrical spark, any spark of any kind, and really hot things would create a small explosion. That would not be fun.

The fps limit for AEGs is around 320 - 340. It is high... But those are to be allowed in games where people are more protected. I would like to have guns under 300, but a lot of stock guns go faster than that. Now that I think of it, I should have the limit of 300 fps so people would be forced to rent the guns from me. Sounds like a good idea.

Springers will have a higher limit. Not totally sure how high. Over 250 shouldn't be that bad. Eye and face protection protect that pretty well. I did a lot of battles in the place already (nothing is built yet) and we were close to each other a lot of the times. My guns shoot 250 fps and it wasn't bad at all. We were even wearing normal street clothes and saftey glasses. For teeth gaurd we took an old shirt and ripped it into strips and tied it around our mouth. That was enough for us.

I am pretty confident that 340 is a pretty good limit. But again for more protected players (will rent out gear).

[Fusan]

Shouldn't this thread be in a different topic?

[Timmay]

Shouldnt Green gas be propane? :(

Shouldnt it be called "fantasy land" i think thatd be a good name.

[A-Ron]

Oh no.. here we go again.


Keep in mind though, your dealing with enclosed areas that your going to need to ventilate (trust me, if you get some of the guys that play airsoft, they fart and smell bad, you'll need ventiliation) any kind of buliding you use. Hence, ANY gas will have a place to go.
Your buliding is going to need some sort of ventiliation to play in it (unless you want it smelling like a sweat shop) so why not allow the use of it?

I do have to agree with Vanac that GBB and CQB are made for one another, and that you would lose a bit of intrest if you limit it to springers and AEGs. You'll still get people to play, but the realism of GBB guns is just awesome when partnered with CQB.

AND... Not to bring it up, but your the one who started the discussion and asking questions for peoples input on the subject, and we/they are giving it to you, so its in the right thread.

[Fusan]

We do have ventalation, In the form of a couple of air conditioners hanging from the roof. If you saw them you would understand. I do not think they would clear out the propane good enough. It will cool the place down though.

Also, I do not know what the insurance company will say on propane being used indoors...

About the thread, I was wondering because it says and questions or comments about the FORUM, not airsoft in general. There really isn't a section for that.

[Texx]

Shouldnt Green gas be propane? :(

Shouldnt it be called "fantasy land" i think thatd be a good name.

Tim, how dare you be the voice of reason. Now go stand in the corner. :(

[A-Ron]

I'm surprised this propane/green gas thing is going on, lol.. wow... Anyway, if you know much abour your air condidtion units installed anywhere, the cool air needs some place to push all the hot air out, or all the muggy air out. So there would be ventiliation. Trust me, I've (don't ask why) emptied two cans of green gas into my room, no fan, vents shut, windows shut, and lit a match, and nothing.

[Vanac]

Sweet! Someone agreed with me! ;)

If they are "forced" then I doubt anyone will go.

I smell a troll though, this post is going to go bad news in 2 days.

[Timmay]

Propane is not green gas, and green gas isnt propane. your source on that is a F-ING MORON kthx. on with legit stuff.

[A-Ron]

Just to ask, how does the TFD Killhouse handle the "gas bulidup" inside of it?

[Timmay]

open the big ass overhead door, or the 3 other doors it has, and the windows. its not even that bad at all. anyone remember Leo and his can? nothing happened. nuff said.

[Tank]

As far as the "danger" of green gas indoors...You would have to have an EXTREMELY high concentration for it to be a fire/explosive hazard.

Not to start the whole green gas vs. propane argument, but.
Acording to the the companies who actually bottle it, green gas is a mixed gas that contains propane but is not entirely propane.
The so called "research" that "proves" green gas is propane was done buy a guy trying to sell propane adaptors for people to use instead of green gas.
Believing that is like beliveing the tobbaco companies' research that "proves" that smoking does NOT cause cancer...

That said. Even if you personally belive green gas is 100% propane, I would avoid calling it propane when speaking to any lawers, insurance people, building owners, etc. Green gas just sounds friendlier/safer.

[A-Ron]

But for a question like that to come up, wouldn't it be more or less a fire marshal or fire code type of thing?

[xKy13x]

So wait, is the place gonna upon becuase i was wondering how far along they are to gettin it open., Thanks guys

[A-Ron]

If you've been following, and have read the whole entire thread, its still in the making, and still trying to attain some of the necessitites of running a business like what he is looking at doing.

[Fusan]

The AC units (I think two of them?) might have an exhaust to the roof, but I am not entirely sure.


Now wtf were you doing filling your room with green gas and lighting it? I want to know that.

Green gas says it's extremely flammable on the bottle, so I don't think 'Green Gas' would be friendly to fire marshals.

The guy who ran the tests on green gas was right on one thing for sure. The green gas composition does not work. It is basic highschool chemistry.

I will think about the green gas. I am not really expecting any hardcore players to be coming. Unless a lot of you guys would come... But apparently there are some people who think I am letting anyone walk off the street and grab a gun and walk around a cardboard maze.

A lot of things are common sense and I do not really think you guys should worry too much. I am a big boy. lol.

Now if you guys were to hold competitions at my field would you mind having your team split up and only 5 allowed in the arena to represent your team?

[A-Ron]

...Now wtf were you doing filling your room with green gas and lighting it? I want to know that...

Some peoples reading skills still seas to amaze me.


...Trust me, I've (don't ask why)...


For the records... It was to test out to see how truly flamable green gas is when confined in a smaller space. It was done at an old house of mine in a room that was empty except for carpet and a few papers on the floor.

The gas was emptied, I waited approx 2-5 (don't know the exact time) minutes and then lit a match.

DO NOT TRY THIS AT YOUR OWN RESIDENCE OR ANYTHING OF THE SORT!
I did it accepting full responsibilities of what could and might happen, and it was done on private property.

The gas should not have dispursed any quicker than what it would have in an enclosed area such as a CQB facility that is 4-8 times as large, if not more.

[Maple]

[QUOTE=Fusan].

I will think about the green gas. I am not really expecting any hardcore players to be coming. Unless a lot of you guys would come... But apparently there are some people who think I am letting anyone walk off the street and grab a gun and walk around a cardboard maze.

QUOTE]

I said I was going to stay out of this, but you got a lot of nerve bad mouthing people on these forums, especially for a new guy.

The majority of us on these boards have been playing awhile and are not the "noob" inexperienced types. In fact, a good number of us would probably be your "hardcore" types, whatever the F that's supposed to mean.

It is pretty sad that you have taken such a defensive stance when asked questions which your average 14 year old may not think of, but those of us who have lived life a little more know better than to not ask.

I don't know what the hell your deal is and I am at the point that I don't even care. If you ever do open up a airsoft business, which I seriously doubt will happen, I hope to hell you treat your potential customers a bit better than you have treated the majority of us.
Also, it seems like you are making ***** up on the fly, because you come on the boards asking about insurance and then go on to tell us that you have insurance not 24 hours later, then retract a bit and tell us that your agent is looking into it, but it still only is going to cost $5000.
And then when a lawyer is brought up, you suddenly have one, but apparently not a good enough one to help you understand what it is you have to do to get insurance and all the other stuff that goes along with running a business.
Yet when people ask you straight forward questions, you get defensive and don't answer them. Why is this, because you honestly don't know, or because you don't have an answer and are having trouble making one up.
Hell, if it was something that you didn't have a good answer for, because you were waiting to hear back from a lawyer, insurance guy or the city, you could have easily stated so, but instead you just put up your guard because you realize that somebody was outting your fictional story.
I have owned my own business before, and it cost more than $5000 to insure the place yearly, and we didn't shoot ***** at each other.

Personally, I think you are full of it and are dreaming about a business that you want to open. Hell, I do it everyday, but then again, I don't wind everybody up into believing that there will be a CQB center by Southridge.
And I also don't insult the people I hope will frequent my made up business.

Now I am done. Good luck and I hope your "business" works out for you.
-mat

[A-Ron]

Ya know, I've always wondered what the old Port Plaza Mall would be like for CQB, or a freakin arena for that matter. Anyone wnat to jump ship with me and get an old mall from the city and make it a airsoft arena?

Its got two stories and escalators and all kinds of shops that are boarded up.


Oh wait, nevermind, the college is using it.

[SINN FEIN]

We don't need sarcasm here guys... this is how "Disagreements" happen. Straight up facts will do.

You said you didn't want green gas because of it's tendency to light on fire*, but I presume C02 would be ok?





*If close enough to open flame/spark

[Timmay]

If you dont expect hardcore players, than i dont know why your posting on these boards whatsoever. Im insulted.

If you know what your doing, then why all the questions? sounds like your trying to fit a pipe dream together.

"I was also wondering if anyone of the more experienced kind would be kind enough to help me and see what would be good. They would meet me at the building and we could look at it together and share ideas and see what would be the best."

What for? you dont expect us. Honestly, i think you should sit down and stop talking. Youve done enough already.

[Tank]

...I will think about the green gas. I am not really expecting any hardcore players to be coming...

...Now if you guys were to hold competitions at my field would you mind having your team split up and only 5 allowed in the arena to represent your team?


1st you say your not expecting "hardcaore" players, but then you ask us what we think about competitions WTF?? Make up your mind. Who do you think would go to a "competition"?? The inexperianced kids? Not likely.


Good luck!

[Fusan]

I said I wasn't expecting experienced players due to the response on this board. I WAS expecting all kinds of airsofters, but, like I see again, you guys respond pretty negatively against everything. The last post was not supposed to be negative at all.

I wanted an experienced player to come to see my ideas with layout and if it would be comfortable for players to be in. That's why I was asking that.

I really don't get you guys anymore...

A lot of questions I do not have. I came on this site asking for insurance because I wanted to find out how much it would cost. I was expecting a quick rough number from somebody who pays it or knows someone who has.

That was it. Then since there were other people responding I figured I should ask what they would like to see. Then this thread got shot to hell.

I will not bother anymore. I am obviously causing too much trouble here. It probably is hard to follow my story due to it changing all the time inbetween posts. That's really not my fault, things come up. Answers that I thought I once had I no longer have due to changed circumstances.

I will stop asking questions and not bother to post anymore. Sorry.

If this project does come through, I will tell you guys. If not, well it will be like 90% of all ideas and just fail. You are better of forgetting about it.

[A-Ron]

... A lot of questions I do not have. I came on this site asking for insurance because I wanted to find out how much it would cost. I was expecting a quick rough number from somebody who pays it or knows someone who has...
Theres four fields that are commonly posted here on the baords.

The Wargame Field - Owner: Gary Blum
TFD Killhouse - Owner: I have no clue, I'm not saying anything unless I know
Dragons Lair - Owner: Dark Knight
Apoc - Owner : I have no clue, I'm not saying anything unless I know


Those would be the four people to ask your insurance question. Its not like there is 100 fields here in Wisconsin where everyone pretty much owns their own and pays for their own insurance.

[Texx]

You would have to forgive us for being so skeptical. Most airsoft boards get about ten of these kind of threads a year. And I would speculate roughly 90% of them turn out to be some kid with a lot of big ideas, but no real possibility of bringing his "ideas" to fruition. What that 90% is able to accomplish is getting alot people excited about the possibility of having another arena to play at. Only to find out that nothing happens.

The majority of the time, it starts out the same way your thread has started - a lot of big ideas, but little concept of the actual organization required to get it done. In the end, they dismiss it as you have done in this thread.

We could all begin announcing our big ideas on the boards. But when it comes down to real life factoring into those ideas, you can end up wasting alot of board space.

SO please do the Wisconsin Airsoft Community a favor. If you do plan to open an airsoft business, do it right so that (1) you don't lose your shirt from a mindless lawsuit as the result of improper insurance and safety precautions, (2) you don't make a mistake that results in hurting our fellow hobbyists, and (3) doesn't take an additional resource away from the commun ity simply because you weren't able to do your research to provide for 1 and 2.

If you can do those, you will see the Wisconsin airsoft community welcome you with open arms. If you can't do that, then shut up.

[Agent J]

AEPs then?

[Wrex]

I was actually going to offer help seeing I am minutes from you and used to run an indoor paintball field for 6 years. Until the "no fat airsoft players"! LOL, there are quite a few of us Fluffy guys here that will put a BB in ya before you can get the word "obese" out. :D

[Texx]

I was actually going to offer help seeing I am minutes from you and used to run an indoor paintball field for 6 years. Until the "no fat airsoft players"! LOL, there are quite a few of us Fluffy guys here that will put a BB in ya before you can get the word "obese" out. :D

Wrex, it's not "fat," its Tactical Assault Girth used to protect the player's body from injury.

[Fusan]

OK

A lot of changes.

I was just in a meeting for like 4 to 5 hours... I am starved.

We are not going to do airsoft here. But that does not mean I am not going to still do it. I am going to try to see if I can get a bigger building.

I am still needing insurance info and have no idea how to contact those guys.

This airsoft arena will not happen for a while, like I expected when I first came on the boards. Do not get your hopes up for a while. Think of it as I am trying to build an Airsoft Arena in a different state.

SO if at all possible could someone please give me contact info to those owners that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for all your guy's help and patience. Again I am sorry for all that I have caused.

[Night Stalker]

OK

A lot of changes.

I was just in a meeting for like 4 to 5 hours... I am starved.

We are not going to do airsoft here.

I am shocked. It sounded like you had all your ducks in a row.

But that does not mean I am not going to still do it. I am going to try to see if I can get a bigger building.

I am still needing insurance info and have no idea how to contact those guys.

Yeah ok. You open the phone book and they are in alphabetical order. You flip to the "I's" and find.. I N S U R A N C E. You then pick up the phone, and dial the number and talk. You ask which companies deal with business, and what kind of policy and rider can you have available to you.
We knew you already didn't call and pretty much wouldn't. And if you had a lawyer, then you would already know how to do it. Or else you are paying a lawyer to look pretty and do nothing. In which case, I have no idea why you would have had a meeting for wiht no insurance, no idea how to get it, and no lawyer. That was obvious. But kidding aside.

This airsoft arena will not happen for a while, like I expected when I first came on the boards. Do not get your hopes up for a while. Think of it as I am trying to build an Airsoft Arena in a different state.

WTH? In another state? You make no sense.

SO if at all possible could someone please give me contact info to those owners that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for all your guy's help and patience. Again I am sorry for all that I have caused.

What owners? The owners of those fields? The PB fields have PB insurance. Most policies say they cover AS to a certain percentage played over PB on that field. The TFD killhouse has a seperate "rider attached to the standard homeowners insurance for the property that covers extra incidentals. I am not going to say exactly what, because we have already done our homework and everything most of us on here in the know tried to tell you from the start, but you didn't want to listen and changed your story. Because if you had a lawyer, you wouldn't be asking an AS forum about where to get insurance, whose players are primarily 75% 20 yrs and younger that posts.

But like I said, you need a whole lot more than JUST insurance before you try it. You will need to know and have knowledge about a great many things instead of just a dream and a catchy name. You gotta know what you are doing in the AS world AND the business world. You also will have to discuss FPS limits with your insurance company. They will possibly set the limits. They will also require certain safety equiptment and could mandate you have medical personnel on the premisis. Some states do this. You might have to have a minimum amount of referees. The full seal masks will have to comply as not all PB masks are ANZI rated to stop those BBs. You have a lot of work to do.

You may want to start by going down to your courthouse and talk to those attached to anything business related, and start asking questions about what you need and who you talk to for EXACTLY what you are doing. If you try to get by and open without your paperwork in order, you WILL get shutdown, and you WILL get fined. And just because the building is zoned for industrial, that may have adverse effects on what you can do in that building for commercial. The phone book for insurance, your local Fire Dept, and city hall should be the first places you start. And for cripes sakes, go see a lawyer. One who is primarily for business. Your first visit is almost always free. So go talk to a lawyer and he will help you get all the answers you need and MORE. Trust me, we operate the TFD Killhouse. And still run Total Force Airsoft, but we only sell to Law Enforcement, not to the public.

So please don't take this post in the wrong way. It is guidance. You posted here asking the questions but didn't really like the answers you got. I am guessing you wanted everyone to flip out and get excited. You can tell by the age limits and years in airsoft who got excited and who didn't. Younger players just want to show up and play and shoot the place and each other.

And this thread a few pages back, pointed out the lack of safety right away. There was your limit of 300. Someone else pointed out that stock guns shoot at least 330, so make it that. Yeah, disregard safety because you are too lazy to de-tune your gun? This is exactly what most of us are trying to avoid. The disregard for safety. And everyone is supposed to trust their judgement on how far away they blasted someone? We will read about it in the Milwaukee Journal. Most of the people want to be sure that they aren't going to be playing in a place that is a serious liability allowing kids of all ages to shoot everything in site as well as be expected to ref themselves for safety. Even though most of them cannot identify their parents in a lineup, handing them a gun and telling them not to shoot someone around a corner pointblank with an AEG that shoots 300+fps... it just isn't going to happen. Even the fields have minimum shoot limits and those get violated by the minute. What do you think is going to happen when your greatest distance is 20ft away at best? You go over 250fps and you are nuts. Who cares what a stock AEG wil do. You want to play you gotta pay.

It CAN be done, but no offense, it is obvious not by you.

[A-Ron]

And thats a wrap folks! lol, Thank you NS, well put;)

[element365]

At the AEC in Manitowoc, wasn't the limit 320 fps? Many CQB sites around the country limit velocity to 328 and often 350 fps.

[Night Stalker]

That was for the AEC.. not the CQB. Now for that time, I didn't run the CQB and it may have been overlooked for one reason or another that I am not aware. But our limit is 250.

[element365]

Thanks for clarifying.

[Fusan]

If I call up an insurance agency they are going to have a ton of insurance they carry. Now if I were to ask a field owner about how much they pay, who is their provider, what limits they set, I should get a pretty clear picture of what to expect. Before I take another step, thinking about saftey even, even BUSINESS, I need to know this. Don't get ahead. I am on the topic of insurance. Then I will take it one step at a time.

Now let me ask again. Night Stalker, you said "Trust me, we operate the TFD Killhouse." So it is not a business? It is part of homeowners insurance?

BTW, I did talk to the lawyer. There are reasons for not having airsoft in the original place (size, loss of potential profit because I am taking up space, and loss of privacy in the office building). We laid everything out. Remeber how I had to present a business propostion? I was not trying to set it up as I was asking questions. I was trying to get rough estimates. And I searched around for CQB limits. They are 300 average. Mine are at 300. 320 - 340 was arranged for people who wanted to use higher powered guns when they are wearing BDU's and signing a second waiver for a higher risk activity. I believe I said that before, I am not sure. I know I didn't mention the waiver before.

I am pretty aware I will get sued. Of course, no brainer. It is a matter of how it is settled. Or if they want, how it is handled in court. Thats why I want insurance information... I do not know why I have to fight for this.

Also when I said to pretend I am doing this in another state, it meant that it will not be a worry for you for a long time.

Should I just try to ask someone else? Are you guys no help to me in the department of business insurance for AirSoft? It is quite obvious that Paintball and AirSoft are the same, But I need to know what previous owners have, what it is like, how much, and the limits. If you can't answer that point me in the right direction. And don't point me to a phone book, because there are agents that sell the insurance. They carry more than one insurance. We already have a guy trying to find that out at the Starr Group.

[Fusan]

Forget about it.


Mods, delete this thread. I found a better forum.

http://www.paintballforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=3

Has all the info I really need. Couldn't even point me there...

I may have been in the wrong situations a lot and acted differently than I should. But at least I apologized... didn't get treated any better... What's apologizing for? I am disheartened at how this thread went the way it did.