Co2 pistol viable option?

[NATHANIELJONESTHUGANGEL]

Ok, so over the weekend I was just clicks away from ordering the dual-tone UHC Beretta M92FS springer off of Airsoft Atlanta thinking "well...an AEP is pretty much out of my price range, and I don't really like the 230 fps power anyways, and i'd never want a GBB as i'd never want to pay for gas...so $26 shipped for a springer can't be to bad...can it?" This of course was before my dad and I took a travel to Gander Mtn. Yesterday (Sunday, Dec. 4th), and saw this http://ai.pricegrabber.com/product_images/13014000-13014999/13014293_640.jpg , a rebranded, and repackaged Wingun USP sold as a Palco firepower raider, on sale with two co2 cartridges for $40, and also this http://www.pyramydair.com/images/airmag_small.jpg the "Crosman Airmag p50" i'm not quite sure what this is in the real world (since it's common knowledge that crosman like quite a few other companies, is a distributor and not a manufacturer of airsoft) for $45 with two co2 canisters, a sticky target, "goggles", and various other crap.



So anyways, my question is...Has anyone shot either of these 2 guns before, or does anyone think that Airsoft Co2 pistols could be a good stepping stone between springers, and gas blowbacks, combining both the semi auto and 300 fps power of GBBs, with the ability to be shot almost all year round (i've heard co2 can be shot in colder weather, than green gas, or is this false?), and the cheapness (both fairly inexpensive for the gun, and co2 itself, and in some cases cheap as in poor quality, (although I hope not), of springers?


Thanks.

[garyb]

If this is the same crossman that I carried (but do not now) it uses an 8 rd clip that fits in the top of the gun, you get two of them and they are soft plastic, breaks easy.
I have a co2 pistol from HFC which uses the same type of mag that the GBB uses for the same price at the store, stop in or call and I can tell you about them.

[Texx]

Gander Mountain and Shopko have them, locally. Scheel's occasionally carries them.

[NATHANIELJONESTHUGANGEL]

If this is the same crossman that I carried (but do not now) it uses an 8 rd clip that fits in the top of the gun, you get two of them and they are soft plastic, breaks easy.
I have a co2 pistol from HFC which uses the same type of mag that the GBB uses for the same price at the store, stop in or call and I can tell you about them.


Yeah, it's the crosman where the mag goes into the top, but I couldn't figure out whether the co2 cartridge goes into the mag (which would make sense, but I don't believe is the case), or into some other part of the gun, (bottom of the grip, where the mag should go?), you remember?

[NATHANIELJONESTHUGANGEL]

Gander Mountain and Shopko have them, locally. Scheel's occasionally carries them.


I haven't been to Shopko since like 1995, and have never even heard of Scheel's, but off hand do you know how much either of these guns are at those two places?

Thanks.





edit: I only double posted because it wouldn't let me edit my other post.

[Tank]

The Crossman are crap. (Stupid 8 round rotary "magazine".) All they did for that thing was re-chamber a pellet gun to fire 6mm bbs instead of .177 cal. lead pellets.

The Firepower is OK, nothing special though.

In my opinion, CO2 guns in general are not good. If you want a NBB get a gas one.

It is true you can use CO2 in colder weather that green gas, but not for long.

I once put a CO2 gun in the freezer overnight, took it out (covered in frost) & it fired ~ 10 shots before venting all remaining CO2. (largley in solid form aka little chunks of dry ice.)

[BoBgOdS66]

The reason co2 can "work" all year round is that its psi at standard temp is 800 psi or something compared to 130 for propane, 110-120 for green gas and 70-80 for 134a. Now the real thing that makes the difference is a regulator. Classic guns use external tanks witha a regulator, so as long as the temp didnt cause cool down below your operating output, usually 70-120 psi, your fine. However, with an unregulated pitol, there would still be a lack of shot consistancy. However, as Tank had demonstrated in his (perhaps) experiment, the gun should still fire in cold weather. After all it has 6 or 7 times the pressure of green gas. I suppose shot consistancy doesnt matter that much for a pistol as compared to a sniper rifle either. In the end you probably get what you pay for, a blow back co2 pistol is better than a green gas one, sorta, mainly power, and readily available co2. However ther are not that many being made, and a high quality WA will undoubtably be a nicer show piece, and in the end pistols tend to be lookers, not performers.

[Timmay]

ill argue that any day except winter with a hicapa, but thats for another thread.

[NATHANIELJONESTHUGANGEL]

The Crossman are crap. (Stupid 8 round rotary "magazine".) All they did for that thing was re-chamber a pellet gun to fire 6mm bbs instead of .177 cal. lead pellets.

The Firepower is OK, nothing special though.

In my opinion, CO2 guns in general are not good. If you want a NBB get a gas one.

It is true you can use CO2 in colder weather that green gas, but not for long.

I once put a CO2 gun in the freezer overnight, took it out (covered in frost) & it fired ~ 10 shots before venting all remaining CO2. (largley in solid form aka little chunks of dry ice.)


Very helpful so far, thanks guys...

and Tank (or anyone really) have you ever seen shot the Palco firepower, or atleast seen it chronoed? On the packaging it says 350 with .20s which can't possibly be true (or can it?), so naturally I rounded it down to 300 fps as a really, really rough estimate...and would like to know what it really is.




also Tank, that frozen co2 experiment sounds very interesting...when you vented it, did the solids just fly out of the spout as fast as what little gas there was left, or what?...elaborate more...please ;) .

[BoBgOdS66]

if it's co2 its very possible its 350+, the thing is it may not be well made, and thus break quickly. Thing to remember, when gas is cooled the same amount exists, its just that the molecules arn't moving as quickly and thus the pressure is lowered. Co2 should still have significant pressure in sub zero weather, it will just be much less than in normal temperature, and cooldown will be much worse thus causing bad shot consistancy. Gary probably has more experience with this as most paintballers use co2 (some use hpa which he also sells). There are only a few airsofters (me, Sinn Fein, Nesbit?) using external air of some sorts, or air in their primarys for that matter.

[Tank]

Very helpful so far, thanks guys...

and Tank (or anyone really) have you ever seen shot the Palco firepower, or atleast seen it chronoed? On the packaging it says 350 with .20s which can't possibly be true (or can it?), so naturally I rounded it down to 300 fps as a really, really rough estimate...and would like to know what it really is.




also Tank, that frozen co2 experiment sounds very interesting...when you vented it, did the solids just fly out of the spout as fast as what little gas there was left, or what?...elaborate more...please ;) .


Yes I have. I work for Palco so I see & shoot everything from them.
The gun in question chronos between 300-350 w/.20 depending on the gun.
I've seen a couple go over 400 but those were early pre-prodcution samples & for once the manufacturer listened to my imput & lowered it. Most of them shoot 330-350.

As far as the frozen gun...It was an HFC CO2 "190 Special Forces" all metal GBB. When the CO2 vented it sprayed CO2 & dry ice out the barrel, out the breech, etc.

Here's the deal with CO2...Yes it has much higher preassure than green gas. However it is effected by temp. more than green gas. How so? Well, the gasification (yes its a real word) is less consistant. Also CO2 turns into it's solid form (dry ice) pretty easily. Green gas on the other hand does not.
CO2 is hard to regulate, and very inconsistant, because of its temperature sensativity. And when it is unregulated (such as is CO2 airsoft pistols) it is even more inconsistant.

The reason CO2 will work in colder weather than green gas is because it starts out at a higher preassure.

I feel like I'm rambleing. I'm tired from working 10+ hours today, so I'm going to shut up now.


I hope this all made sence.

[NATHANIELJONESTHUGANGEL]

Yes I have. I work for Palco so I see & shoot everything from them.
The gun in question chronos between 300-350 w/.20 depending on the gun.
I've seen a couple go over 400 but those were early pre-prodcution samples & for once the manufacturer listened to my imput & lowered it. Most of them shoot 330-350.

As far as the frozen gun...It was an HFC CO2 "190 Special Forces" all metal GBB. When the CO2 vented it sprayed CO2 & dry ice out the barrel, out the breech, etc.

Here's the deal with CO2...Yes it has much higher preassure than green gas. However it is effected by temp. more than green gas. How so? Well, the gasification (yes its a real word) is less consistant. Also CO2 turns into it's solid form (dry ice) pretty easily. Green gas on the other hand does not.
CO2 is hard to regulate, and very inconsistant, because of its temperature sensativity. And when it is unregulated (such as is CO2 airsoft pistols) it is even more inconsistant.

The reason CO2 will work in colder weather than green gas is because it starts out at a higher preassure.

I feel like I'm rambleing. I'm tired from working 10+ hours today, so I'm going to shut up now.


I hope this all made sence.

For the most part I understand...but by Co2 being inconsistant, do you mean one shot may go 250 fps and 70 feet, while the next may go 370 fps and 150 feet, or what?

[Tank]

Yeah the preassure varies a lot more so the velocity jumps around a lot more than with green gas.

[healthy]

definetely go with the co2 guns. way stronger more reliable and u can use them all year. i saw my friends green gas pistol explode on saturday cuz it was so cold

[vhousetheSEAL]

yea co2 guns are amazing very powerful, i have 2, im very happy with them, green gas explodes when its too cold ive seen it happen. co2 can be used in the cold as well as summer or spring. very powerful guns but they require alittle more maintance. i posted this before NEVER USE THE WRONG KIND OF AMMO.

[Maple]

Green gas does not "explode" when it is cold. An explosion involves flames and concussive force.

[Tank]

definetely go with the co2 guns. way stronger more reliable and u can use them all year. i saw my friends green gas pistol explode on saturday cuz it was so cold


CO2 guns are actually far less reliable than green gas guns.
The vast majority of CO2 guns are just regular gas guns with heavier hammer springs. The higher preassure of CO2 causes them to wear out &/or break far sooner than if using green gas.

Yes you can shoot CO2 in colder weather but not an entire magazine.

Have you noticed how none of the big names in gas guns produce any that use CO2? Why do you think that is? I'll tell you....Because CO2 is crap.

Yes KWC & HFC make CO2 guns but they are crap.
KWC's GBBs are all crap. HFC makes some good green gas guns, but the CO2 guns are crap. (And in actuality most HFC guns are made by KJW.)

Now Some of you how own CO2 guns will take issue with me calling CO2 guns crap...Let me just say this.

1. Put 1000+ rounds through it and then tell me how great your CO2 gun is. If it still works at all.
2. In the last year & a half I've worked on over 300 gas guns (green & CO2), I might have just a little more experience/knowledge about them than you do.

OH YEAH!! Let me also say that green gas does NOT explode when cold. The colder it is the harder it is for the gas to expand from liquid to gas. Now a can of green gas can "explode" if left in say a hot car in the middle of summer. I know people it's happened to, & it nearly happened to me. (The normally concave bottom of the can was completely convex. Not good!)

[Gemer]

My brother picked up a CO2 gun from walmart the other day, and it tends to shoot powerfully, and accuratly, it holds about 20 rounds give or take a few, I don't fire it, but the quality is not the best, he has had some mag problems, but it very well may shoot 350 this summer if it lasts that long